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What causes the backflip rollover?

macleanflood

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Jul 24, 2021
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Fall Creek, OR
Nope. Call it out! Jackass screwing around when I should have called it good. Played on that obstacle for 10 minutes before the rollover. I can at least say I know where my tipping point is😁
You really need to change your avatar to that shot of you with both arms up out the window... that's a perfect picture!

-Mac
 
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Theblkprl1999

The black pearl
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Apr 13, 2022
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Low anti squat and poor driving/ reaction. If you take the time to make sure your geometry is correct or as much as it can possibly be you will find yourself with a much more planted front end even on some inclines couple that with the as stated “hold my beer” that we’ve all done you get result. I shouldn’t have lifted here. My wife’s Tj doesn’t. I built hers after mine she has way better anti squat numbers

FC6B27F4-DC9E-4641-9473-A37B751D7EA1.jpeg
 

someguysjeep

simple guy
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ohio
triangles, start lookin at triangles instead of links. the tip of your triangles is a designated suspension point.

what is that point and what effect does it have? and since we always end up at AS, what effect/control does AS have over this point? if you can grasp this, then you can take a long look at different lifts and have an idea of the action they can/will produce.
 

Brianj5600

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Jul 4, 2018
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Middle Tennessee
How do you calculate dynamic AS?

I don't. I did not like the manners of the rear suspension, so I made a change, tried it out, better but still not happy so I made another change, liked it, made another change, too much, went back to previous setting. I might try the Garret mod next.
 

mrblaine

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I don't. I did not like the manners of the rear suspension, so I made a change, tried it out, better but still not happy so I made another change, liked it, made another change, too much, went back to previous setting. I might try the Garret mod next.
It was a generic you.
 

psrivats

Turnpike performance PLUS off-road traction !
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How do you calculate dynamic AS?

One can't.

I'm pretty certain that even the factory suspension specialist engineers only look at a handful of specific cases, both typical and extreme, during the design phase (with pretty advanced vehicular dynamics software) to envelope what they think as the overall Jeep use on and off-road. There is no way any aftermarket designs go into that level of detail. It's simply impossible.

There are lot of similarities to chip design and vehicle design and I'll perhaps start a thread discussing those.

What you have accomplished with the Savvy midarm is very special, because it's born out of experience, well honed intuition and very careful observation of the how the Jeep works (in stock and modified forms). Numbers and models are only a guide and medium of communication. Models by nature aren't perfect, only vary in degrees of accuracy. What matters is good understanding of the underlying physics and how much of that understanding is properly applied to the real world implementation.
 

mrblaine

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One can't.

I'm pretty certain that even the factory suspension specialist engineers only look at a handful of specific cases, both typical and extreme, during the design phase (with pretty advanced vehicular dynamics software) to envelope what they think as the overall Jeep use on and off-road. There is no way any aftermarket designs go into that level of detail. It's simply impossible.

There are lot of similarities to chip design and vehicle design and I'll perhaps start a thread discussing those.

What you have accomplished with the Savvy midarm is very special, because it's born out of experience, well honed intuition and very careful observation of the how the Jeep works (in stock and modified forms). Numbers and models are only a guide and medium of communication. Models by nature aren't perfect, only vary in degrees of accuracy. What matters is good understanding of the underlying physics and how much of that understanding is properly applied to the real world implementation.
It is easier to just call it brute force trial and error.
 

psrivats

Turnpike performance PLUS off-road traction !
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It is easier to just call it brute force trial and error.

OEM does the same. Just using fancy tools, fancy speak and far bigger budget to get to the end faster, with experience from past generations to help guide a little bit, if the people working care to remember to look for it.
 
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Mike_H

Off-Camber is scary
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One can't.

I'm pretty certain that even the factory suspension specialist engineers only look at a handful of specific cases, both typical and extreme, during the design phase (with pretty advanced vehicular dynamics software) to envelope what they think as the overall Jeep use on and off-road. There is no way any aftermarket designs go into that level of detail. It's simply impossible.

There are lot of similarities to chip design and vehicle design and I'll perhaps start a thread discussing those.

What you have accomplished with the Savvy midarm is very special, because it's born out of experience, well honed intuition and very careful observation of the how the Jeep works (in stock and modified forms). Numbers and models are only a guide and medium of communication. Models by nature aren't perfect, only vary in degrees of accuracy. What matters is good understanding of the underlying physics and how much of that understanding is properly applied to the real world implementation.
It always amazes me how much of design comes down to trial and error (or guess and check) vs "real" design. I'm almost convinced that they teach theory in college as a form of hazing...I.E. the guys currently working had to go through it so you do too!. Good engineers and designers are just better at picking a starting point and understanding what they are seeing to make the next iteration better...
 
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Vinman

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Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
950
Location
Calgary, Alberta
Correct. If the locker wasn't there, most of those guys wouldn't have gotten themselves into a position to back flip in the first place. They should remove the locker.
This.
I’ve said it before, the introduction of the Rubicon model is as much of a curse as it is a godsend.
Great package for experienced drivers but a horrible package for a lot of the less experienced drivers.
Before the factory lockers came along an inexperienced driver would typically lose traction before they got themselves into too much trouble. Nowadays there’s a lot of people that hop into a Rubicon as their first offroad vehicle and the lockers are far superior to their driving skills and they end up in situations that an open diff equipped vehicle wouldn’t get them into.
 

jjvw

quetzalcoatl created you
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This.
I’ve said it before, the introduction of the Rubicon model is as much of a curse as it is a godsend.
Great package for experienced drivers but a horrible package for a lot of the less experienced drivers.
Before the factory lockers came along an inexperienced driver would typically lose traction before they got themselves into too much trouble. Nowadays there’s a lot of people that hop into a Rubicon as their first offroad vehicle and the lockers are far superior to their driving skills and they end up in situations that an open diff equipped vehicle wouldn’t get them into.
Open diffs, summer street tires, front wheel drive, etc and these bad things would happen far less frequently. 🤣
 
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psrivats

Turnpike performance PLUS off-road traction !
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This.
I’ve said it before, the introduction of the Rubicon model is as much of a curse as it is a godsend.
Great package for experienced drivers but a horrible package for a lot of the less experienced drivers.
Before the factory lockers came along an inexperienced driver would typically lose traction before they got themselves into too much trouble. Nowadays there’s a lot of people that hop into a Rubicon as their first offroad vehicle and the lockers are far superior to their driving skills and they end up in situations that an open diff equipped vehicle wouldn’t get them into.

Excellent points. I was just reading a thread that someone forwarded me on JL Wrangler forum. New Jeep owner, very young, new to off-roading, gets a 392 Rubicon unlimited XR package (ie top of the line). Does some mods (not sure why!) And then goes for his first trail ride. Flips it over on the cleghorn trail in SoCal, trying a difficult line to avoid damaging his brand new Jeep after watching the guy in front of him scratch his fenders a little. He was a good sport about it though.

It always amazes me how much of design comes down to trial and error (or guess and check) vs "real" design. I'm almost convinced that they teach theory in college as a form of hazing...I.E. the guys currently working had to go through it so you do too!. Good engineers and designers are just better at picking a starting point and understanding what they are seeing to make the next iteration better...

I've entirely realized that school is all about putting yourself through prolonged effort and evaluating how well you can come through the other side. I barely use 5% of what I learned technically in grad school. But the experience of going through the grind, putting up with problematic people, dealing with stress from hard timelines esp when the project feels like looking down a barrel ... those intagibles are really the most valuable part of education.

Yor point about good engineers quickly coming up to speed with the starting point and evaluating the right path forward is so very true. Some people just have the knack 🙂
 
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Mike_H

Off-Camber is scary
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I see what you did there, LOL

I also agree with the point about learning how to work under pressure and the value of working, sometimes ridiculously hard, to get to the end. Funny you say you barely use what you learned in Grad school. I have an engineering undergrad and a masters in business...I use my grad school knowledge ALL the time now, and barely do any engineering anymore. The stuff I do is mostly for my own purposes or troubleshooting controls problems.