Wildman's TJ is getting a face lift

Got home to some packages 📦.
Thanks to @Irun and @Alex01 for helping me spend money.

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And for when I install the digital dash I got some Posi-Tap connectors.

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Does anybody have any experience with the foam for fuel cells?
I'm curious about how you install it and have a fuel level sender around it?
 
Wildman said:
Does anybody have any experience with the foam for fuel cells?
I'm curious about how you install it and have a fuel level sender around it?
Click to expand...
i tried to figure it out. from what i gathered the foam is the help mitigate slosh and take up space fumes have to build up in the cell.

i was gonna use an aluminum cell but none offer a very good design.

few things......... 1 the fuel sys we have doesn't use foam and neither does any other production vehicle.
and 2 was the aluminum construction materials.

this is why i ended up with a plastic tank, unless it has real baffles or foam inserts the fuel is free to slosh and this slosh hits those sides and eventually cracks them like a coat hanger from bending or flexing when the fuel sloshes. but not plastic.....round corners, no seams, nothin to flex and break.

fumes is the big deal, and thats where i'm stuck at. not many understand or can elaborate on how the evap sys actually functions. it's a collection can, a purge valve and some vacuum.
i have a small issue of when the equipment is triggered to work. it's not b4 the key is turned so what's it really preventing ?
and is the vacuum draw from the block? and is it a constant? or is the vacuum made by a device and pushed into the engine?

1 might assume if the engine block provides the draw 1 might could retail that tube to suck fumes, but again it only works under power.....so we still have to turn the key on a fume filled cell until the power creates the draw and removes the fumes, which is after the key is turned and power has been sent into the fume cloud.

see why i was all wishy washy about turnin that key now?
 
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someguysjeep said:
i tried to figure it out. from what i gathered the foam is the help mitigate slosh and take up space fumes have to build up in the cell.

i was gonna use an aluminum cell but none offer a very good design.

few things......... 1 the fuel sys we have doesn't use foam and neither does any other production vehicle.
and 2 was the aluminum construction materials.

this is why i ended up with a plastic tank, unless it has real baffles or foam inserts the fuel is free to slosh and this slosh hits those sides and eventually cracks them like a coat hanger from bending or flexing when the fuel sloshes. but not plastic.....round corners, no seams, nothin to flex and break.

fumes is the big deal, and thats where i'm stuck at. not many understand or can elaborate on how the evap sys actually functions. it's a collection can, a purge valve and some vacuum.
i have a small issue of when the equipment is triggered to work. it's not b4 the key is turned so what's it really preventing ?
and is the vacuum draw from the block? and is it a constant? or is the vacuum made by a device and pushed into the engine?

1 might assume if the engine block provides the draw 1 might could retail that tube to suck fumes, but again it only works under power.....so we still have to turn the key on a fume filled cell until the power creates the draw and removes the fumes, which is after the key is turned and power has been sent into the fume cloud.

see why i was all wishy washy about turnin that key now?
Click to expand...
May be time to swap to an electric vehicle, Dude…;)
 
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someguysjeep said:
i tried to figure it out. from what i gathered the foam is the help mitigate slosh and take up space fumes have to build up in the cell.

i was gonna use an aluminum cell but none offer a very good design.

few things......... 1 the fuel sys we have doesn't use foam and neither does any other production vehicle.
and 2 was the aluminum construction materials.

this is why i ended up with a plastic tank, unless it has real baffles or foam inserts the fuel is free to slosh and this slosh hits those sides and eventually cracks them like a coat hanger from bending or flexing when the fuel sloshes. but not plastic.....round corners, no seams, nothin to flex and break.

fumes is the big deal, and thats where i'm stuck at. not many understand or can elaborate on how the evap sys actually functions. it's a collection can, a purge valve and some vacuum.
i have a small issue of when the equipment is triggered to work. it's not b4 the key is turned so what's it really preventing ?
and is the vacuum draw from the block? and is it a constant? or is the vacuum made by a device and pushed into the engine?

1 might assume if the engine block provides the draw 1 might could retail that tube to suck fumes, but again it only works under power.....so we still have to turn the key on a fume filled cell until the power creates the draw and removes the fumes, which is after the key is turned and power has been sent into the fume cloud.

see why i was all wishy washy about turnin that key now?
Click to expand...

I think you are OVER-THINKING it. Does your stock fuel tank do anything differently than your fuel cell? Did cars from 1950 go BOOM because they didn't have a EVAP system? Put a ground on the tank and IMO you should be good.

I know what the cell foam helps but then I was thinking about it more last night. Your 19 gal fuel tank doesn't have baffles. I'm not sure I follow you about the fuel cracking the tank over time. I've never heard of people having issues with their fuel cell or fuel tanks leaking. But I'm sure it can happen.
I read mixed reviews about the foam and found a few threads that talked about it breaking down due to things like E85. But also found others that said they had no issues. Part of this was the problem threads were from 10+ years ago and the no problem threads were newer.
The other thing I found is that the foam only reduces your amount of fuel by 3% so in a 20 gallon tank it's less than 0.5 gallons. Then looking at things more a few more things come to light. While the Motobilt is cheaper than the GenRight fuel cell it doesn't come with the fuel sending unit threaded ring. And that is $$$ from GenRight. Where as the GR fuel cell come with the threaded ring but has now gone up in price and with the cover it's $1100 so almost in the fuel tank range.
I've got to do some measuring and find out if I can even fit a GR tank under my rig. I do have one concern even if a GR tank will fit and that is that since all my rear crossmembers are now raised it's like I have NO body lift and the one tank REQUIRES a body lift.

So I've got some things to look at and try to figure out. But my main criteria is that it be a 18-20 gallon or larger tank/cell so I have limited choices in that regard that will fit into my TJ. Now I could also say SCREW the stock pump/sender unit and go all aftermarket and then not have to worry about the threaded ring.
 
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Wildman said:
I think you are OVER-THINKING it. Does your stock fuel tank do anything differently than your fuel cell? Did cars from 1950 go BOOM because they didn't have a EVAP system? Put a ground on the tank and IMO you should be good.

I know what the cell foam helps but then I was thinking about it more last night. Your 19 gal fuel tank doesn't have baffles. I'm not sure I follow you about the fuel cracking the tank over time. I've never heard of people having issues with their fuel cell or fuel tanks leaking. But I'm sure it can happen.
I read mixed reviews about the foam and found a few threads that talked about it breaking down due to things like E85. But also found others that said they had no issues. Part of this was the problem threads were from 10+ years ago and the no problem threads were newer.
The other thing I found is that the foam only reduces your amount of fuel by 3% so in a 20 gallon tank it's less than 0.5 gallons. Then looking at things more a few more things come to light. While the Motobilt is cheaper than the GenRight fuel cell it doesn't come with the fuel sending unit threaded ring. And that is $$$ from GenRight. Where as the GR fuel cell come with the threaded ring but has now gone up in price and with the cover it's $1100 so almost in the fuel tank range.
I've got to do some measuring and find out if I can even fit a GR tank under my rig. I do have one concern even if a GR tank will fit and that is that since all my rear crossmembers are now raised it's like I have NO body lift and the one tank REQUIRES a body lift.

So I've got some things to look at and try to figure out. But my main criteria is that it be a 18-20 gallon or larger tank/cell so I have limited choices in that regard that will fit into my TJ. Now I could also say SCREW the stock pump/sender unit and go all aftermarket and then not have to worry about the threaded ring.
Click to expand...
Damn savage when the “over analyzer” says you’re overthinking it!
 
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NashvilleTJ said:
May be time to swap to an electric vehicle, Dude…;)
Click to expand...
i'm old............... EFI and evap electronics did not exist when i was 16 and playin with cars.

and i read a lot but it's never all covered in 1 spot and things get missed. the few threads i opened with fuel sys questions didn't get many hits.
 
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WSS said:
Then the fumes generated to charge the ev will just pollute animals, drinking water supplies and protected lands far far away. Better them than me 😜
Click to expand...
Captain Kirk said that's why he went to space, it's so that the Earth can repair itself when we start polluting space instead.

​

"He's got the wrong idea," Shatner, 90, told Entertainment Tonight. "The idea here is not to go, 'Yeah, look at me. I'm in space.' No.

"I would tell the prince, and I hope the prince gets the message, this is a baby step into the idea of getting industry, all those polluting industries, off of Earth," he continued.

"You can build a base 250, 280 miles above the Earth and send that power down here, and they catch it, and they then use it, and it's there," he added.

https://www.newsmax.com/scitech/william-shatner-prince-william-science-space/2021/10/15/id/1040663/
 
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Wildman said:
I think you are OVER-THINKING it.
Click to expand...
ya, that's what you said last time.
Wildman said:
I'm not sure I follow you about the fuel cracking the tank over time.
Click to expand...
lots of reviews of cells crackin at the seams...........my guess is slosh flexing the flat panels and it bends 500x then cracks.
Wildman said:
about the foam and found a few threads that talked about it breaking down
Click to expand...
there is no lifetime foam it will all require periodic changing.
Wildman said:
h the threaded ring
Click to expand...
boyd fuels cells, mine was 89$................https://fueltankparts.com/collections/custom-flanges-parts-adapters
looks like it's 99 now.


the GR cell baffle sys didn't fit toximus' stock sending unit arm, he mod'd it. Moto uses the flat ring..........i got 1 i did some trimming on but would still work if you want it. i get a pic when i remember.

9-10.5" ish the deep cell the threaded ring would be perfect if it's a 12 you need the flat for sure or you gotta drop the pump cup down

edit: the weld on was 89.........mine was like 118 now that i think about it, looks like the bolt on is now 139$.
 
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Well now that I don't have a axle in my way I'll do so measurements and see if a GR tank would even fit. But I'm leaning towards the MB fuel cell with Tanks Inc pump and float.
And I'll add some foam for the slosh.
The tanks you are talking about cracking what were they used in? Race cars or trail rigs?
 
So the truss on the rear axle was looser than I'd thought. Not a problem and actually made something else easier for me. I'd been wanting to install a extension to the front of the truss so I could tie into the two bolt holes on the top of the diff.

So I drilled out a plate and then tapped the bolt holes on the diff.

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It butts up to the truss nicely.

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But I needed to clearance the upper link mount just a little.

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All welded and waiting for it to cool off so I can grind down the weld on the bottom.

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And before I weld the truss back on I'll change the ARB fitting for the new style. It'll be a lot easier with out the truss there.
 
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Wildman said:
The tanks you are talking about cracking what were they used in? Race cars or trail rigs?
Click to expand...
welded aluminum fuel boxes, quite a few stories of split and or cracking seams Pirate had the most info on fuel cells i could find, every thing i looked for had a link to a Pirate thread for the answer.

baffle balls is an ant-islosh alternative to foam that needs replaced every couple yrs.



edit: i looked into the floatless sending units too. they don't come matched to our OHM's we would need a calibrator.
 
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someguysjeep said:
welded aluminum fuel boxes, quite a few stories of split and or cracking seams Pirate had the most info on fuel cells i could find, every thing i looked for had a link to a Pirate thread for the answer.

baffle balls is an ant-islosh alternative to foam that needs replaced every couple yrs.
Click to expand...

I'll look into all of the different options before I do anything. And yes a lot of the links to fuel cells and anti-slosh foam pointed me to Pirate also.
The biggest complaints about the foam breaking down came from people who used fuel from CA, AZ and NV. Why I don't really know.
Since our builds are the few that are either running or thinking of running a fuel cell I'd guess we're the ginny pigs. Which I'm OK with.
 
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