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Wildman's TJ is getting a face lift

lBasket

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As Black said it might still be a bit deep. I'm going to go back and adjust it again. The other thing is that I need to find a better way to load the gear to get a better pattern.

This video while VERY monotone does a good job explaining the contact pattern.


Lucky for me the pinion seal isn't installed into the housing instead it's installed in this piece that screws into the housing. So I won't ruin the seal taking it back out.

View attachment 304758

I got a head of myself and should have looked at that pattern better.

And Carl sent this information over. I'm trying to get the competition contact pattern.

View attachment 304759

View attachment 304760

View attachment 304762

As I said earlier it's been over 12 years since I've done gears. And while you don't lose the knowledge if you aren't doing it often your get rusty. So on Thursday I'll get back at it and make some adjustments.
Wow! That video was awesome. That answered a lot of my questions lol. And yeah I had "depth" in my mind being the wrong direction, that cleared a lot up. He makes it look easy.

But when he is adjusting the pinion depth, for you you have to remove everything and insert shims and reset and that's why it takes forever?

That's nice the seal can be reused... at least one thing you don't have to sit and wait for a part for
 
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Wildman

Wildman

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Wow! That video was awesome. That answered a lot of my questions lol. And yeah I had "depth" in my mind being the wrong direction, that cleared a lot up. He makes it look easy.

But when he is adjusting the pinion depth, for you you have to remove everything and insert shims and reset and that's why it takes forever?

That's nice the seal can be reused... at least one thing you don't have to sit and wait for a part for

Yes the video was informative but DRY...

I have to remove the inner pinion bearing race which is driven into the housing and either add or subtract shims depending on which way I need to move the pinion. Right now I am still too deep so I need to remove .010" of shim from the shim stack. I was sitting at .072" in the stack so it'll be .062" if this make a good contact pattern. And yes it's taking everything apart and then putting it all back together again that takes so long. Plus you're lifting that heavy carrier in and out after you've pried it out of housing. So it just takes time.
 

Blackjack

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Wow! That video was awesome. That answered a lot of my questions lol. And yeah I had "depth" in my mind being the wrong direction, that cleared a lot up. He makes it look easy.

But when he is adjusting the pinion depth, for you you have to remove everything and insert shims and reset and that's why it takes forever?

That's nice the seal can be reused... at least one thing you don't have to sit and wait for a part for
For someone who does it daily the process is pretty quick. For those that do it as a hobby it requires more time and more importantly patience.
 
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Wildman

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For someone who does it daily the process is pretty quick. For those that do it as a hobby it requires more time and more importantly patience.

Very true.

I worked as a Heavy Line mechanic at a Ford dealership that was also a RV dealer. I had to regear a utility company truck and had come in on a Saturday to get caught up on work. Finished the gear install and went home. Came back to work on Monday all happy that I was going to make extra money this pay period. Took the truck for a test drive and got 3-4 miles down the freeway when the rear end locked up and I almost wrecked the truck trying to get it onto the side of the road.
The short of the story is that I'd forgotten to put gear oil in the diff.... :eek: And it had gotten SO HOT that the pinion sized to the housing. We had to buy a NEW Dana 80 axle for the truck. Wasn't one of my finer moments.
 

lBasket

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Very true.

I worked as a Heavy Line mechanic at a Ford dealership that was also a RV dealer. I had to regear a utility company truck and had come in on a Saturday to get caught up on work. Finished the gear install and went home. Came back to work on Monday all happy that I was going to make extra money this pay period. Took the truck for a test drive and got 3-4 miles down the freeway when the rear end locked up and I almost wrecked the truck trying to get it onto the side of the road.
The short of the story is that I'd forgotten to put gear oil in the diff.... :eek: And it had gotten SO HOT that the pinion sized to the housing. We had to buy a NEW Dana 80 axle for the truck. Wasn't one of my finer moments.
Of all the things to not do right setting up gears...
 
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Wildman

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Of all the things to not do right setting up gears...
Yep,
After that I started putting tags on anything I drained fluid from. I'd put one tag on whatever it was an done on the steering wheel. I can beat myself up pretty bad when I fuck-up like that. I don't make mistakes often but when I do... I go BIG.
 

Blackjack

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Very true.

I worked as a Heavy Line mechanic at a Ford dealership that was also a RV dealer. I had to regear a utility company truck and had come in on a Saturday to get caught up on work. Finished the gear install and went home. Came back to work on Monday all happy that I was going to make extra money this pay period. Took the truck for a test drive and got 3-4 miles down the freeway when the rear end locked up and I almost wrecked the truck trying to get it onto the side of the road.
The short of the story is that I'd forgotten to put gear oil in the diff.... :eek: And it had gotten SO HOT that the pinion sized to the housing. We had to buy a NEW Dana 80 axle for the truck. Wasn't one of my finer moments.
Those are the days you dread that is for sure.
 
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Picked up the sandblated bumper while I was in Yakima today.

20220125_152617.jpg
 
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I got home early enough to get a couple of hours in on the axle. Tried a few different setups to see what would happen to the pattern.
To try and help explain things a little more about what is happening I took a few more pictures. Here is where the inner bearing race goes and you put shims behind the race to adjust the pinion depth.

20220125_164346.jpg



20220125_164359.jpg


To make it easier to adjust the depth I ground down the race so it would slip in and out of the housing easier.

20220125_164542.jpg



You put the shims in behind the race and then install the pinion.

20220125_171749.jpg


20220125_164820.jpg


Now on some axles the shims go between the inner bearing and the pinion head instead.

20220125_164428.jpg


20220125_164434.jpg
 
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Wildman

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I took .020 out from behind the pinion race since everyone kept saying it looked like the pinion was too deep.

But it shoved the contact all the out towards the heel of the tooth. And the pattern still has the sharp line on it that would normally indicate the pinion was too deep. But me taking out .020 shows that not to be the case.

20220125_172932.jpg


20220125_172955.jpg
 

lBasket

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I got home early enough to get a couple of hours in on the axle. Tried a few different setups to see what would happen to the pattern.
To try and help explain things a little more about what is happening I took a few more pictures. Here is where the inner bearing race goes and you put shims behind the race to adjust the pinion depth.

View attachment 304928


View attachment 304929

To make it easier to adjust the depth I ground down the race so it would slip in and out of the housing easier.

View attachment 304932


You put the shims in behind the race and then install the pinion.

View attachment 304934

View attachment 304933

Now on some axles the shims go between the inner bearing and the pinion head instead.

View attachment 304930

View attachment 304931
These are great, really puts the "how" to the "what" from that video above
 
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lBasket

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I took .020 out from behind the pinion race since everyone kept saying it looked like the pinion was too deep.

But it shoved the contact all the out towards the heel of the tooth. And the pattern still has the sharp line on it that would normally indicate the pinion was too deep. But me taking out .020 shows that not to be the case.

View attachment 304939

View attachment 304940
Why would you still have the sharp line if it isn't too deep?
 
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Wildman

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So after dinner I went back out and put .018 back into the shim stack and got this pattern. And just to make sure there wasn't a issue with the carrier or ring gear I did a pattern check in three different positions around the ring gear.
Talked with Carl some and he feels that this just the way this gear set is showing the pattern and that it shouldn't be a problem I just need to break the gears in slowly to allow them to lap together.


1st pattern
20220125_200434.jpg


20220125_200446.jpg



2nd pattern check

20220125_200458.jpg


20220125_200508.jpg



3rd pattern check

20220125_200518.jpg


20220125_200530.jpg


So at this point the plan is to call it good and I'll finish assembling the axle once I have my case spreader modified.
 

reddvltj

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I took .020 out from behind the pinion race since everyone kept saying it looked like the pinion was too deep.

But it shoved the contact all the out towards the heel of the tooth. And the pattern still has the sharp line on it that would normally indicate the pinion was too deep. But me taking out .020 shows that not to be the case.

View attachment 304939

View attachment 304940
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought depth of the pinion is how far it is away from the centerline of the differential and it controls heel/toe contact on the ring gear. And how far towards the root of the ring gear teeth was adjusted with backlash.
 
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Why would you still have the sharp line if it isn't too deep?

Sometimes it just happens. The way the gears were machined or it could be something with this housing. Right now Carl is leaning towards it being something wrong with this housing. The tolerances weren't machined correctly or setup properly so it's causing this.

He said that based on the way the last gear set broke this makes him think it's the housing.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought depth of the pinion is how far it is away from the centerline of the differential and it controls heel/toe contact on the ring gear. And how far towards the root of the ring gear teeth was adjusted with backlash.

Yes and no....

And I HATE answers like that. Makes me feel like I'm talking about shock length or the mystery suspension you only need when you need it. But no one will tell you how to know when.

This video explains it better than I can.

 

lBasket

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Sometimes it just happens. The way the gears were machined or it could be something with this housing. Right now Carl is leaning towards it being something wrong with this housing. The tolerances weren't machined correctly or setup properly so it's causing this.

He said that based on the way the last gear set broke this makes him think it's the housing.
Interesting... does that mean the housing was why the last set broke or just why they broke a certain way?

Awesome you've got the gears dialed in though
 
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Wildman

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Interesting... does that mean the housing was why the last set broke or just why they broke a certain way?

Awesome you've got the gears dialed in though

Well we are starting to think it might be why I've broken the gears. And Carl said that the way they broke points at it being something with the housing.

I'm not liking this news but if it turns out to be a bad housing I do have a low pinion Dana 60 housing sitting in my garage. It just needs a new axle tube pressed in as one of them spun.
 

Blackjack

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought depth of the pinion is how far it is away from the centerline of the differential and it controls heel/toe contact on the ring gear. And how far towards the root of the ring gear teeth was adjusted with backlash.
Pinion depth controls the centering of the pattern from root to crown. Backlash is just the slop between the teeth and only has a small effect on the pattern.