Wildman's TJ is getting a face lift

[bobthetj03]

When you said you were digging out the case spreader, I didn't gather you were building one from scratch? Lol!

 

[lBasket]

When you said you were digging out the case spreader, I didn't gather you were building one from scratch? Lol!

Kinda a theme of the thread. Custom make it, or at least customize it and make it better

 

[Wildman]

is this the same diff you showed those patterns for?

No the pattern is affected by the pinion depth. Backlash doesn't really change the pattern much it is just the amount of slop/space between the pinion & ring gear teeth.

now your changing bearings on the carrier? i wouldn't expect anything new to fit like anything old, even using set up bearings is not exact every time.

I had setup bearing to get the backlash set before I pressed the new bearings on. I was always taught to use my old parts when doing the setup so you didn't damage your new bearings. Then once you had an acceptable pattern you pressed on your new bearings and put it all together for the last time.

The difference in race size is just a clearance thing. And if I remember all the talk way back when it was one of the reasons ARB went away from this design.

and by carrier preload you mean what? right to left effecting BL or it's just tight as hell? cause i read you really cant get "to much" preload on carrier bearings. mines a MF'r to get in and out.

Carrier preload is the force squeezing the bearings on the carrier together. I don't know the whole parts of why ARB likes a bit more preload but they want more preload than other carriers do. And yes you can get too much preload but you'd have to have a case spreader and then stuff a lot of shims in. Your preload is probably correct if it's a PITA to get in and out.

When you said you were digging out the case spreader, I didn't gather you were building one from scratch? Lol!

I only modified mine.

Kinda a theme of the thread. Custom make it, or at least customize it and make it better

It does seem to be doesn't it.

 

[Wildman]

https://insights.globalspec.com/article/12036/bearing-preload-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important
Carrier-bearing Preload

Definition: See pinion-bearing preload
Think of it as: How tightly the carrier-bearings are pressed into their races and consequently how stiff they are to rotate. Also controls how tightly the carrier is held in the housing.
How Measured: Not possible to measure directly.
Adjusted Via: Depends on axle type.
Note: If carrier preload is too little, carrier will move away from pinion under load (squirm or deflect), increasing backlash. This could lead to insufficient gear tooth contact, resulting in chipping/breaking of gear teeth.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Rick - do you know the part number for your ARB? I seem to remember something about the ‘60 ARB race on one side being short. It came with a thick spacer to make up for it for some reason.

 

[Wildman]

Rick - do you know the part number for your ARB? I seem to remember something about the ‘60 ARB race on one side being short. It came with a thick spacer to make up for it for some reason.

Yes this is a RD36 and Carl confirmed that I needed the short race. And yes there is a "Master" shim from ARB and then a shim pack also for the Dana 60. I'd already ordered both of those kits. Just had missed the fact that the race was a different size. But the new one will be here Tuesday.

 

[Gollywomper]

I would have dropped it off at the gear guy……… lol

 

[Wildman]

I would have dropped it off at the gear guy……… lol

I've done that twice before and it's broken twice before so I figured I'd do it myself this time and if it breaks again then it's MY FAULT.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Yes this is a RD36 and Carl confirmed that I needed the short race. And yes there is a "Master" shim from ARB and then a shim pack also for the Dana 60. I'd already ordered both of those kits. Just had missed the fact that the race was a different size. But the new one will be here Tuesday.

The ARB I smoked in my old 60 was the RD35 - which was the 3-piece 4.56 and up version. I think the RD36 is the 4.10 and down version. I went back and looked and I have the install instructions for the RD35, and I do see that master shim in there. Sounds like you are in good shape, but if you need anything from the manual I can send you a copy.

 

[Wildman]

The ARB I smoked in my old 60 was the RD35 - which was the 3-piece 4.56 and up version. I think the RD36 is the 4.10 and down version. I went back and looked and I have the install instructions for the RD35, and I do see that master shim in there. Sounds like you are in good shape, but if you need anything from the manual I can send you a copy.

Yes the RD35 is the 4.56 and up and the RD 36 is the 4.10 and down. I have thick cut gears.
Great to know someone who has the instructions. I email ARB to see if I could get a copy of the instructions since I couldn't find them online anywhere. If they don't reply I might ask you to scan a few pages for me.

There is a master shim and then a shim pack and with the previous setup there was a 0.030 shim installed on the between the bearing race and housing on the gear side of the carrier. Can you verify that this is how it's supposed to be setup please?

 

[Wildman]

Just to add to the carrier perload question:

Carrier-bearing Preload

Think of it as: How tightly the carrier-bearing cones are pressed into their cups and consequently how stiff they are to rotate. Also controls how tightly the carrier is held in the housing.
How Measured: Not possible to measure directly.
Adjusted Via: Adding or subtracting an equal amount of carrier-bearing shims to both sides of the carrier. Ideally, total carrier shim stack (sum of both sides) should be approx. 0.015” larger than the available space, and a case spreader should be used. However, a case spreader is not critical, and a good approximation of carrier-bearing preload can be made by ensuring the carrier can only be installed with a few good blows from a dead-blow hammer.

Note: If carrier preload is too little, carrier will move away from pinion under load (squirm or deflect), increasing backlash. This could lead to insufficient gear tooth contact, resulting in chipping/breaking of gear teeth.


All of these quotes are from Billavista of Pirate 4x4 fame.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Yes the RD35 is the 4.56 and up and the RD 36 is the 4.10 and down. I have thick cut gears.
Great to know someone who has the instructions. I email ARB to see if I could get a copy of the instructions since I couldn't find them online anywhere. If they don't reply I might ask you to scan a few pages for me.

There is a master shim and then a shim pack and with the previous setup there was a 0.030 shim installed on the between the bearing race and housing on the gear side of the carrier. Can you verify that this is how it's supposed to be setup please?

Here is the layout for the master shim side. There are also shims between the bearing and the carrier on the ring gear side.

PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a .pdf version of the install instructions.

 

[Wildman]

I found this on a Hot Rod page so I cannot verify if it's correct or not.

Yes there is an easy way to tell if you have the proper preload on the side bearings. Here is the formula.

Total preload (in/lbs. with the unit totally assembled) minus the pinion bearing preload (with only the pinion assembly) multiplied by the gear ratio = side bearing preload.

If your total preload is 32 in/lbs - pinion preload of 25 in/lbs = 7 in/lbs x ratio of 3.73 = 26.11 in/lbs side bearing preload.

I learned this from an awesome GM teacher and it works great. I have the procedure for the complete shim set up also but on a different computer. I can get it to you later if you would like.

DIFFERENTIAL REPAIR PROCEDURE
(INTEGRAL TYPE)



1. Remove cover - allow oil to drain.
2. Clean teeth with solvent, check tooth contact pattern, and record.
3. Check backlash in 3 spots around ring gear (general specification is .005" to .009" with no more than .002" variation).
4. Check ring gear runout (.003" maximum).
5. Remove axles.
6. Check total preload and record.
7. Mark and remove side bearing caps.
8. Measure shims on both sides and record.
9. Check pinion bearing preload and record.
10. Inspect all bearings, races, and gears for pitting or other damage.
11. Replace pinion bearing races (if required).
12. Check pinion depth with special tool (if available).
13. Replace pinion bearings with correct pinion depth shim in place (lube bearings lightly).
14. Install pinion gear, new crush sleeve, front bearing, seal, yoke, washer and nut.
15. Tighten pinion nut until proper pinion bearing preload is achieved and record (should be 15-20 lbs./in. for used bearings and 20-30 lbs./in. for new bearings).
16. Replace side bearings and races (lube lightly).
17. Hold ring gear and differential case assembly in place.
18. Temporarily place a waved shim (.040") on outside of right side bearing race.
19. Pack left side bearing with shims until zero backlash is obtained.
20. Pack right side bearing to zero preload (remove waved .040" shim).
21. To set backlash and side bearing preload subtract .004" from left shim pack and add .012" to the right shim pack
22. Install side bearing caps and torque bolts to specifications.
23. Check backlash in 3 places and record (should be .005" to .009" with less than .002" variance).
24. Check total preload and record.
25. Use the following formula to check side bearing preload. Total preload - pinion preload = _______ x axle ratio = side bearing preload.
26. Side bearing preload should be 15-30 lbs./in. for new bearings.
27. Use gear marking compound and check the gear tooth contact pattern to double check setup.
28. If backlash and side bearing preload is within specifications, finish assembling the remaining parts, torque all fasteners to specifications.
29. Add the correct lubricant and road test vehicle to confirm the repair.






Original Measurements

Gear contact pattern OK______Not OK_______Explain:

Backlash:

Ring gear runout:

Total preload:

Side bearing shim totals - Left side__________ Right side__________

Check pinion bearing preload:

Pinion depth shim thickness:

Parts needed:





Reassembly Measurements

Pinion depth shim needed:

Pinion bearing preload:

Side bearing shim totals - Left side__________ Right side__________

Total bearing preload:

Use formula to figure out side bearing preload.


Total preload - pinion preload = ________ x axle ratio = side bearing preload.

__________ - ___________ = ________ x ________ = ____________

Side bearing preload:

Check backlash:

Check ring gear runout:

Check gear tooth contact pattern. OK_____ Not OK_____. If not OK, Re do the setup.

I do remember reading some where about getting a total preload reading before and there were spec's for it but I haven't seen this on any of the instructions I've read lately.

Another good thread about setting up gears.

https://irate4x4.com/threads/helpfu...il carrier requires a little effort to "seat"

 

[Wildman]

Here is the layout for the master shim side. There are also shims between the bearing and the carrier on the ring gear side.


View attachment 305744


PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a .pdf version of the install instructions.

Interesting. Yes I have shims under the bearing on the ring gear side but when I disassembled the axle there was also a ARB shim between the bearing race and housing on the ring gear side. And to be honest I'd never seen this done before.

I'll PM you my email addy.

 

[Wildman]

bearing & race is different or just the race?
is the wider cup contacting something and not allowing the cone to seat?

Just to answer your question better.

The standard bearing race.

And then the narrow race

See how it sits with the narrow race?

 

[someguysjeep]

i never had to deal with an Arb collar yet, but the illustration Nashville posted tells me why that cup is narrower.

with that lip on there i can see why a spreader helps, i was able to drive in my thickest shim last.


kinda on the fence about an Arb in the 14B. if i can disco that rear axle (isolate the front drive) i don't have to have an unlockable locker really. wouldn't want a spool either but could maybe get away with a detroit or grizzly that does allow turning overrun..

 

[Wildman]

i never had to deal with an Arb collar yet, but the illustration Nashville posted tells me why that cup is narrower.

with that lip on there i can see why a spreader helps, i was able to drive in my thickest shim last.


kinda on the fence about an Arb in the 14B. if i can disco that rear axle (isolate the front drive) i don't have to have an unlockable locker really. wouldn't want a spool either but could maybe get away with a detroit or grizzly that does allow turning overrun..

The nice thing about the 14 bolt is you have side adjusters so you aren't dealing with shims.

But a Detroit or Grizzly is a nice option if you can do front digs since they are cheaper.

 

[Wildman]

A buddy sent me a link to a FaceBook group that is all about gear setup. So I joined it and sent pictures of my gear pattern and have been getting some good ideas and things to check to try and get this RIGHT.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/732...3512871532998&notif_t=group_comment&ref=notif

 

[Wildman]

Well I knew it was bound to happen and I guess I'd rather it happen NOW instead of later. As I was pulling the axle apart again and went to remove the carrier cap the copper line broke. Again not really a big deal but it's just MONEY.... It's this little shit that ends up costing you so much.

Now I'm in the middle of trying out some different shim combinations to see if I can come up with a better pattern.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Well I knew it was bound to happen and I guess I'd rather it happen NOW instead of later. As I was pulling the axle apart again and went to remove the carrier cap the copper line broke. Again not really a big deal but it's just MONEY.... It's this little shit that ends up costing you so much.

View attachment 305930

Now I'm in the middle of trying out some different shim combinations to see if I can come up with a better pattern.

Well, the good news is that now it won’t block your pattern pictures….



…always somethin’, isn’t it.