Freud is impressed.
Wranglerfixed
- Thread starter AndyG
- Start date
Freud is impressed.
I've seen two different things here in the WTF, that our engines are more like a tractor and pretty much all "performance" upgrades are snake oil.... (throttle spacers, tunners, etc) and that wranglefix products are the real deal.... (I just bought one PCM from Mark today because my 06 was stuck on second gear btw) so... I think the only way to show the difference would be to show some data about what the performance tunner provides, correct? I mean, I undestand that it may be different for all jeeps since they all are built different, but at least an example of what was before and what was after the tunning to understand the beneficts of the $275 tunning I would say... I don't know, a dyno of a jeep before and after the tunning, a 0-60 comparison, fuel efficiency or something like that.. not sure if that's too much to ask... but... I think we are all interested!!!
All I know is I've driven a very large number of different rigs and they are never the same. Buy the tune, if it doesn't make a noticed improvement, send it back. If it does, keep it. My personally, if I had an 05-06, I would tend to not be very likely to call either Andy or Mr. Bills a liar.
I just got the antirock, should be delivered next Monday... I just got PCM from Mark today... Should be arriving by the weekend.. I need to save for the revolution 5.38s and then your brake pads Mr Blaine... Then new 35s.. Then the or fab tire carrier.. Eventually I will get the tune.. But right now there are other priorities...
That sounds like Jerry's mantra.
That would be the reaction by anyone who has ever purchased a WranglerFix ECU.
Not correct. We might be interested, but release of proprietary information is too much to ask.
Read my post carefully. [Linked below.] It is not a "race" tune. The adjustments change the shift points and other parameters slightly, enough so to allow the 4.0 engine to work better with the 42RLE automatic transmission with 0.69 4th/OD but not so much as to alter engine performance to the extent of violating rules imposed by the EPA, NHTSA, CARB, etc.
Auto manufacturers don't publish the "secret sauce" that goes into their ECUs. Why should WranglerFix? What they do to the ECM programming would become public information and WranglerFix would have no protection against would-be competitors who would rather steal company secrets than develop their own product.
Our choice as consumers is to buy or not buy based upon the available information. I chose to buy and am satisfied that I made a sound purchase decision.
YMMV.
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Prior Post: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/wranglerfixed.77593/page-6#post-1531509
Too bad. You could have had a Sway-Loc.
it was almost $300 more than the AR, and I dont see highway speeds to often, I live in a small town so I'm usually around the 15-35 mph range... so I couldn't justify the extra $300 bucks.. SL may be better? yes.. do I need it? nahh..
I never asked for a secret sauce revelation, just what would be the before and after, I'm not saying that we don't trust Mark, as I metioned I just got a PCM from him, but....
when you mention that the horsepower and torque are improved is normal to ask how much, or at least some data about the before and after...
again.. is the answer is "no we can't share that info" is not a deal braker, I did mention that was not sure if that was too much to ask.... but you can't complain when we as a consumer ask "how much" when a product says that "will increase" something....
If rationalizing that a SwayLoc which works better than an Anti-Rock on pavement isn't worth an extra $300 to you, then a $275 additional expense for an ECU that allows the 4.0 and 42RLE transmission to work better together probably won't be worth it for you either.
Your same logic that you usually only drive 15-35 mph, when applied to Black Magic brakes, should lead you to the same conclusion that you don't really need that expense. Nor do you need the expense of 5.38 gears and 35" tires.
Count all the money you just saved.
You can thank me later.
black magic brakes, 5.38s and 35s will make wonders while wheeling, not only on pavement.. but you might be right with the $275 tune for pavement.. may not be needed for my driving style... but that doesn't mean I'm not interested and maybe add it in the future...
Just to help clarify this point(not hop on a bandwagon picking on you), there is a big difference between a good tune flashed onto your pcm by someone who knows a platform and the "jet chip" piggyback things.
Being electronically controlled and having aweful gear ratios the 42rle can benefit from changing its "shift early and low rpm for small tires and mpgs" to "shift up in the torque band so it isn't a turd". I have a friend who has been a mechanic his whole career and plays with hp tuners. He was telling me that the 4.0l fuel and timing curves are far from optimal for power.changing that won't make it a big block,but added to a trans tune and i would expect a decent seat of the pants result.
As far as performance parts being a waste i agree about spacers,intakes and the other stuff a highschool kid would want. And the 4.0l is more likely to be reliable bone stock.
There are however plenty of parts that will wake up amc 6's if done right. Head,cam and tune.strokers and forced induction will all make a big difference.
Not 100% sure about the Wranglerfix tune, but at least with a base FRP tune and a few modifications, the difference you would measure on a dyno is very small compared to the difference you will notice in daily driving.
This is something I’ve been messing around with myself. I started with a FRP base tune (which is on a Wranglerfix PCM that was not originally tuned) and have been modifying it mostly for efficiency, but also power to a degree.
The reason you won’t see much of a gain on a dynamometer is that the conditions used on the dyno usually are not representative of the average driving condition, and the stock tune will put out significantly more power than it will in typical driving conditions, especially those with extended high power demands.
The stock tune aggressively pulls timing as the intake air sensor (or manifold air temp sensor, in older models) and the coolant temperature sensor measure higher temperatures. Thus you will see a high power output for a brief period, such as a dyno pull. However, in more extended conditions, such as climbing a mountain on a freeway, the actual power output will quickly diminish from peak as the IAT and coolant temperatures rise, causing the computer to aggressively pull timing. Ironically, it’s still burning all the same fuel, just not extracting as much power as it could, and this partially burned fuel/air heats up the catalytic converters even more, eventually triggering converter temperature management protocols, which causes the computer to run the engine even more conservatively, further dropping power output.
What the FRP tune, and I’m assuming the Wranglerfix tune, do (in part, among other things) is reduce the amount of timing pulled due to rises in IAT and coolant air temperatures. So even though you’re burning the exact same amount of fuel, you actually extract more power from it. This also has the effect of reducing the amount of unburnt fuel reaching the catalytic converters, which helps to prevent them from overheating. Most tunes also scale back or eliminate component overtemp protection due to the aggressiveness at which those will cause the computer to run more conservatively.
So numbers on a dynamometer aren’t going to tell you much, at least with a typical test. A much better test would be to run the engine at 4600 RPM and WOT or near-WOT for 2+ minutes and then immediately take a peak horsepower or torque dyno pull.
As for better fuel economy, this absolutely makes sense, since the tuned engine can extract more energy from the same amount of fuel than the untuned engine during mid to high demand driving situations. The higher availability of torque also means that the typical driver downshifts less, which further improves fuel economy.
That said, one thing that will counteract the fuel economy gain in many tunes is how aggressive they are at putting the engine in power enrichment mode. Most tunes disable the delay at all RPMs and also significantly cut back the throttle threshold to reach PE. PE is an open-loop mode in which the computer demands a condition significantly richer than stochiometric, which provides a small gain in power and also keeps component temperatures in the cylinder slightly lower.
To get better fuel economy without losing the benefits of PE, I changed my PE to come on instantly when the pedal is at its absolute maximum travel. Meaning my engine runs stoichiometric at up to about 95% throttle, which is usually 99% or more of daily driving. However, if I do need just a bit more power and don’t want to downshift, I can simply stab the throttle. And funnily enough, if the engine starts pinging or detonating (rare), it can be immediately stopped by simply flooring the pedal and holding it floored. The downside of PE is a loss of efficiency, but the alternative (downshifting) also results in an loss of efficiency at the same power demand.
I know the FRP tune doesn’t mess with DFCO, and I doubt the Wranglerfix tune does either, but I’ve been messing with making the DFCO settings to make it come on in almost all deceleration settings. I’m still messing with the settings, but making DFCO more aggressive has made a noticeable improvement in fuel economy and also makes engine braking more effective.
Another thing the tunes do is disable torque management schemes in the PCM which are designed to reduce the jerky feel of an instantaneous throttle response, meaning if you stab the throttle, the power immediately ramps up as opposed to essentially “soft-starting”.
The tunes aren’t really changing fuel maps to a significant degree since most driving is done in closed loop. Even in open loop, there really isn’t a whole lot to be gained except to change the power/efficiency tradeoff by adjusting parameters that ultimately affect the air to fuel ratio. There are a few optimizations, but realistically, closed loop operation can do this better than any canned open-loop tune can.
This is something I’ve been messing around with myself. I started with a FRP base tune (which is on a Wranglerfix PCM that was not originally tuned) and have been modifying it mostly for efficiency, but also power to a degree.
The reason you won’t see much of a gain on a dynamometer is that the conditions used on the dyno usually are not representative of the average driving condition, and the stock tune will put out significantly more power than it will in typical driving conditions, especially those with extended high power demands.
The stock tune aggressively pulls timing as the intake air sensor (or manifold air temp sensor, in older models) and the coolant temperature sensor measure higher temperatures. Thus you will see a high power output for a brief period, such as a dyno pull. However, in more extended conditions, such as climbing a mountain on a freeway, the actual power output will quickly diminish from peak as the IAT and coolant temperatures rise, causing the computer to aggressively pull timing. Ironically, it’s still burning all the same fuel, just not extracting as much power as it could, and this partially burned fuel/air heats up the catalytic converters even more, eventually triggering converter temperature management protocols, which causes the computer to run the engine even more conservatively, further dropping power output.
What the FRP tune, and I’m assuming the Wranglerfix tune, do (in part, among other things) is reduce the amount of timing pulled due to rises in IAT and coolant air temperatures. So even though you’re burning the exact same amount of fuel, you actually extract more power from it. This also has the effect of reducing the amount of unburnt fuel reaching the catalytic converters, which helps to prevent them from overheating. Most tunes also scale back or eliminate component overtemp protection due to the aggressiveness at which those will cause the computer to run more conservatively.
So numbers on a dynamometer aren’t going to tell you much, at least with a typical test. A much better test would be to run the engine at 4600 RPM and WOT or near-WOT for 2+ minutes and then immediately take a peak horsepower or torque dyno pull.
As for better fuel economy, this absolutely makes sense, since the tuned engine can extract more energy from the same amount of fuel than the untuned engine during mid to high demand driving situations. The higher availability of torque also means that the typical driver downshifts less, which further improves fuel economy.
That said, one thing that will counteract the fuel economy gain in many tunes is how aggressive they are at putting the engine in power enrichment mode. Most tunes disable the delay at all RPMs and also significantly cut back the throttle threshold to reach PE. PE is an open-loop mode in which the computer demands a condition significantly richer than stochiometric, which provides a small gain in power and also keeps component temperatures in the cylinder slightly lower.
To get better fuel economy without losing the benefits of PE, I changed my PE to come on instantly when the pedal is at its absolute maximum travel. Meaning my engine runs stoichiometric at up to about 95% throttle, which is usually 99% or more of daily driving. However, if I do need just a bit more power and don’t want to downshift, I can simply stab the throttle. And funnily enough, if the engine starts pinging or detonating (rare), it can be immediately stopped by simply flooring the pedal and holding it floored. The downside of PE is a loss of efficiency, but the alternative (downshifting) also results in an loss of efficiency at the same power demand.
I know the FRP tune doesn’t mess with DFCO, and I doubt the Wranglerfix tune does either, but I’ve been messing with making the DFCO settings to make it come on in almost all deceleration settings. I’m still messing with the settings, but making DFCO more aggressive has made a noticeable improvement in fuel economy and also makes engine braking more effective.
Another thing the tunes do is disable torque management schemes in the PCM which are designed to reduce the jerky feel of an instantaneous throttle response, meaning if you stab the throttle, the power immediately ramps up as opposed to essentially “soft-starting”.
The tunes aren’t really changing fuel maps to a significant degree since most driving is done in closed loop. Even in open loop, there really isn’t a whole lot to be gained except to change the power/efficiency tradeoff by adjusting parameters that ultimately affect the air to fuel ratio. There are a few optimizations, but realistically, closed loop operation can do this better than any canned open-loop tune can.
Exactly,area under the curve is increased. 10 hp doesn't seem like much added to 190hp. But if you are adding 10hp to the 40(?) hp at low rpms it is much more significant.
that's a hell of an explaination my friend... thank you very much for the class.. all the things you said make perfect sense...
Deceleration Fuel Cut Off. Basically with DFCO the engine injects zero fuel while coasting, so just the momentum of the car is spinning the engine. So you use zero fuel until you reach idle speed or touch the gas pedal again.
If you watch with a tuner, you can see when it engages because the pulse time of the injectors goes to zero, and the car decelerates just a bit more quickly.
cabech984
New Member
@AndyG Can you report back on your fuel mileage findings? Did this tune make it the hypermiler that I know these Jeeps are capable of
?
Thinking I need to place an order for my 05 LJR with a forever check engine light for heated O2 circuit. Might have to shell out the cash for the X tune while I'm at it.
? Thinking I need to place an order for my 05 LJR with a forever check engine light for heated O2 circuit. Might have to shell out the cash for the X tune while I'm at it.
Have you ruled out the factory design anomaly? https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/oxygen-sensor-heater-issue-cant-pass-smog.42268/
cabech984
New Member
Yes, I did the tsb after checking/cleaning grounds. Did the tsb years ago, actually just rechecked all of that a few weeks ago when I decided that I'd get aggressive on making the engine light disappear!
@AndyG Can you report back on your fuel mileage findings? Did this tune make it the hypermiler that I know these Jeeps are capable of
Thinking I need to place an order for my 05 LJR with a forever check engine light for heated O2 circuit. Might have to shell out the cash for the X tune while I'm at it.
I am in Dayton, also. I just ordered the PCM with tune for my 05 LJR. If you want, you could see what mine is like before and after it installed?
I'm going to order the tune next week before I leave town for a few days. I'm tired of hitting the OD switch.
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