Another lift kit conversation

[Billwynburger]

This is what I run into when trying to hire someone to install a lift kit. Is there any truth to what this man is saying? Casters, axle alignment for a 2 or 3 inch lift?

In the end we couldn't reach an agreement because I disagreed with his choice of shocks, on a positive note we were closer then the last shop I spoke with. If I knew a lift kit was this complex I wouldn't have bought a jeep.
Very Frustrating!



Bill,
I'm interested in a 3 inch lift on my 2005 wrangler
ome springs with rancho shocks
Rear track bar, new engine mounts if needed.
Just shoot me a ball park figure


Why new engine mounts?

Bill,
I would prefer new engine mounts over a T-case drop.


SYE is proper.

Bill,
Do I need a sye with only 3 inches?
Will engine mounts will take care of any driveline vibrations?



Should need. But it is the correct way to address the issue. When you angle the engine, yes it helps with rear driveline angles, but it exacerbates the front. We usually use them if you are doing tucks etc... or really running a tall lift.




Leme start with my standard questions. Its easier to make sure its built for what you are gonna do.
1. How much time on vs. offroad do you plan on driving? 2. What type of terrain offroad? 3. City or highway? 4. What Size Tires do you plan on running? 5. What is your budget for the project?

Bill,
I guess about 50/50 road & trails, both highway and city,, 33 inch tires. I don't want an SYE kit.



3.5-4" is ideal for 33's unless you have flat or high clearance fenders
or add in a 1" body. 3" is minimum, but you'll run offroad on stock fenders/flares rub.

Bill,
I don't want any taller then 3". I'm not opposed to a 2" lift and a 1" body. I don't run serious trails, I don't need a lot of flex, no rock climbing. I mainly run forest roads and novice trails.



Minimum equipment: Springs Shocks F&R track correction Lower Control Arms. Brake Lines. Rear Shock Extensions.
Otherwise itll throw a bad alignment and you can do motor mounts, but if you do, MUST have adjustable rear arms to equalize the u-joint angles... or itll vibrate still, at 2" with no control arms... caster will be 5 degrees or so.... itll be a tad wanders but if thats livable its kinda user preference.

Most of it really depends on how well you want it to drive on road afterwards. Offroad is an easy target.


Properly executed I can do a 6" lift and hit that goal.

Bill,
dude I don't want a 6 inch lift.




From experience I can tell you tho, most 2" kits will end up riding worse over time due to lack of alignment correction.
Even from good companies.

Bill,
what alignment problems?
drive line?
vibrations?


Any time you lift a radius arm suspension (ie jeep) 3 things happen. Axle go off center left and right. Caster takes a dive. Caster is what keeps your wheel pointed straight and centers your vehicle....
Ideal for a TJ is 7 degrees. Anything less will start to cause wandering, and some odd tire vibrations.
Obviously getting worse the lower you go. Its the #1 cause of death wobble.
SO its kinda that funny sweet spot. 3" is where all kit makers start to include caster correction. And still correctable with motor mounts.

Bill,
So you're saying there is no way to correct casters if someone were to install a 2 inch lift kit?


2" kits can be corrected with cam bolts... but very few makers include track bars for 2" kits
Rustys has one.

Bill,
I shouldn't need a new track bar with a 2" lift should I?
I could relocate it if need be


Need is subjective. TO be perfect yes.
At 2" axles will shift side to side .5"
Brackets are fine too.
Lots of ways to correct.

Bill,
OK I think I'm going to do some more research thank you



I can find a kit for you that crosses all those line easily. Just trying to pass on some knowledge so you understand why I recommend what I do.

Bill,
you keep referring to a kit, I read about ppl installing lift kits and ordering everything separate all the time. I've priced it out myself with OME and rancho shocks. Some did a T-case drop, some didn't. It didn't seem this complex.


Add in some Cam bolts and an adjustable front track bar from rustys, and you throw a perfect alignment.
Lots of misinformation on the net. The reason I prefer kits has to do with shock valving and spring rates. Most manufacturers match their springs and shocks to perform well together. if you mix and match and get it wrong, itll ride pretty stiff.

Bill,
People install ome and rancho on TJ's they work extremely well together. This comes highly recommended
and it's not a kit.


Ive done the ranchos. They work decent. I can tell you the OME spring and shock combo rides nicer tho.
The new Teraflex ones are great as well. Installed one last week. Rode great. Metalcloak is softer.
If you wanna do OME, this is the combo I would use.



https://www.quadratec.com/products/16090_01X_PG.htm
https://www.quadratec.com/products/16315_6515.htm
http://www.rustysoffroad.com/jeep-suspension/jeep-trac-bar-panhard-bar-items/jeep-tj-lj-wrangler-rubicon-unlimited-97-06-adjustable-track-bars/rustys-track-bar-adjustable-front-stock-tj-xj-zj.html
Old Man Emu 2" Suspension Systems for 03-06 Jeep Wrangler TJ with Manual Transmission
This system will allow fitment of 32" tall tires for maximum performance. Larger tires will require fitment of a body lift.
quadratec.com

For a 2" anyway.
That will be pretty solid for you.
Probably wouldn't vibrate or need motor mounts either.
And if you want 33's... +1" body

Bill
It's not for you it's for me and I don't want OME shocks, I'm fine with everything else. I'll match this with Rancho shocks and I'll order all the parts myself.


Ok sorry we couldn't be of more help and best of luck.

Bill
Me too

 

[CodaMan]

Wow! It's all about them.

Is there no way you can do a 2" spring lift and 1" body lift on your own? It's literally a days work in a driveway. I did mine with no help either.

And FYI - You don't need adjustable control arms, cam bolts or adjustable track bars for a 2" spring lift with a 1" body lift.

 

[Chris]

And FYI - You don't need adjustable control arms, cam bolts or adjustable track bars for a 2" spring lift with a 1" body lift.

X2.

All you need is some OME 2" springs, some Rancho RS5000X shocks, and probably some washers to drop the transfer case.

This is an easy install too, nothing very advanced here, it can all be done in a driveway.

BTW, the above recommendations are just what I would run personally.

 

[Rob5589]

Well, he is mostly correct. The relocation brackets for the control arms is lame. Use adjustables if you need to move them. Cam bolts can help a small amount.

The sye is the correct way to go to correct driveline angles. A t/c drop can work as will a mml but those are more or less workarounds to the correct way.

3.5" is minimum for 33's so it will be very important to get the bumpstops correct at 3.

The JKS trackbar will work for 2" lift. At 2 you may or may not need it, same with a relocation bracket in the rear.

My suggestion: 2" BDS or Pro Comp coils with .75 spacer in front to level, Rancho 5000X 55239/55241, JKS trackbar, relocation bracket in rear, Savvy 1.25 body lift, 1" motor mount lift, bumpstops set up correctly.

I use the exact set up with the BDS coils, minus the body lift. Minor vibs from about 42-45 mph, smooth everywhere else. I only run 31's but it would clear 32's. With BL it can do 33's, not ideally, but it would work for your intended usage.

 

[Billwynburger]

It's looking like I'll have to install it myself, like you said it's all about them, what they want. I can't believe it!

 

[Billwynburger]

X2.

All you need is some OME 2" springs, some Rancho RS5000X shocks, and probably some washers to drop the transfer case.

This is an easy install too, nothing very advanced here, it can all be done in a driveway.

BTW, the above recommendations are just what I would run personally.

That's exactly what I want!

 

[Billwynburger]

I wanted to stay conservative so I thought I'd go with the 2" suspension (OME springs & Ranch shocks) If I wanted to run a larger tire I'd install the 1" body.
I told him I wasn't opposed to that. I'll just do it myself.

 

[lindsey97]

I'm new here, but I see a lot of the guys on this forum recommend Dirk at DPG offroad for the OME 2.5" kit and rancho shocks. JKS makes an adjustable trackbar for 0-2" lift.

Consider getting a 3/4" front spacer, in case you don't like the stance of the Jeep post lift, or decide to add a heavy bumper/winch combo later.

I would do a SYE and dual cardan rear driveshaft whether it needed it or not.
As far as alignment goes, install the lift yourself, then schedule an appointment to get it aligned. If the shop cannot get the caster within spec, drive it and see what you think. If it needs it, order adjustable control arms for the front, then get it aligned again.

Do the SYE after you get vibrations. If nothing else, I would do a SYE/new shaft just to have new ujoints that are greasable. I assume that most of these Jeeps have ungreasable ujoints, and 100k miles on original parts, which after a lift leads to vibrations.

I used to have a 1990 chevy fullsize blazer with 8" lift and 38" swampers, I had to grease the rear ujoints every 1500-2000 miles.

 

[lindsey97]

By the way, I'm planning to run the exact lift you described, with 31x10.50-15 tires on factory rims, add super 35 kit with Auburn elocker in rear, and a Aussielocker in the front dana 30, all with 3:73 gears.
Keep it simple and reliable…..

 

[Mike_H]

I think the dude is really trying to help you out. Everyone has their own preferences...here its Rancho shocks. I'm Running Bilsteins that I don't mind, They provide very good wheel control. Buddy of mine is running Quadratech Nitros and they ride fine too. Don't write that shop off just because he doesn't buy the same parts that people on this forum push. He's also right about the OME shocks...I've heard they ride very good. They are just more expensive than the Ranchos, so people pick the Ranchos.

What is REALLY important is what they do after they install the parts. Do they cycle the suspension and check for clearance and to set bump-stops? What kind of after install support to they offer.

 

[CodaMan]

To me, what is important is for someone I'm hiring to do a job to do it and not second guess me or up sell me. If I ask for something specific that is what I expect.

 

[Billwynburger]

To me, what is important is for someone I'm hiring to do a job to do it and not second guess me or up sell me. If I ask for something specific that is what I expect.

I agree! He lost an installation because he disagreed over the shocks that I wanted. Not a wise choice for a business IMO. I have also read a countless number of people that have installed a 2 inch lift that did nothing more then springs & shocks and did not install an SYE kit.

 

[glwood]

I agree! He lost an installation because he disagreed over the shocks that I wanted. Not a wise choice for a business IMO. I have also read a countless number of people that have installed a 2 inch lift that did nothing more then springs & shocks and did not install an SYE kit.

That would be me. OME springs and shocks, with 3/4" spring spacers also (front and rear in my case, I don't mind the rake). I know that I don't fall in the SYE needed category, but I don't feel the need to get a double cardan rear drive shaft either. I did put on an adjustable rear track bar, however, due to OCD issues. The axle being even slightly off to one side irked me, so I did something about it.

 

[JDS123]

That guy seemed very reasonable and pretty knowledgeable. I'm sure he would have installed any shocks you wanted. There is no shop in existence that is going to take a list of parts and just order it without talking to the customer about their specific choices. At least I've never been in a shop like that. All you had to say was "I appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like to get the ranchos anyway". The shop that put my lift on recommended I change about 20% of the parts on my lift. I just turned down the majority of their recommendations. You're not required to put exactly what they recommend on your Jeep...

But I'd agree with the above. If you have the time and space, do it yourself. You'll learn a lot more about your Jeep and know it is done right. But if you're like me and don't have an extra hour in the day, get a shop to do it and push back a little on what parts they recommend versus what you want.

 

[MaloStapalo]

#1 cause of death wobble is not caster. It's out of balance tires usually coupled with loose steering components.

 

[Billwynburger]

That guy seemed very reasonable and pretty knowledgeable. I'm sure he would have installed any shocks you wanted. There is no shop in existence that is going to take a list of parts and just order it without talking to the customer about their specific choices. At least I've never been in a shop like that. All you had to say was "I appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like to get the ranchos anyway". The shop that put my lift on recommended I change about 20% of the parts on my lift. I just turned down the majority of their recommendations. You're not required to put exactly what they recommend on your Jeep...

But I'd agree with the above. If you have the time and space, do it yourself. You'll learn a lot more about your Jeep and know it is done right. But if you're like me and don't have an extra hour in the day, get a shop to do it and push back a little on what parts they recommend versus what you want.

Although I appreciate your input you might want to re-read the conversation I had with this man.................I'll copy paste the last 2 sentences.

Bill
It's not for you it's for me and I don't want OME shocks, I'm fine with everything else. I'll match this with Rancho shocks and I'll order all the parts myself.


Ok sorry we couldn't be of more help and best of luck.

 

[Billwynburger]

That would be me. OME springs and shocks, with 3/4" spring spacers also (front and rear in my case, I don't mind the rake). I know that I don't fall in the SYE needed category, but I don't feel the need to get a double cardan rear drive shaft either. I did put on an adjustable rear track bar, however, due to OCD issues. The axle being even slightly off to one side irked me, so I did something about it.

Curious: What did you do to correct it?

 

[JDS123]

Although I appreciate your input you might want to re-read the conversation I had with this man.................I'll copy paste the last 2 sentences.

Bill
It's not for you it's for me and I don't want OME shocks, I'm fine with everything else. I'll match this with Rancho shocks and I'll order all the parts myself.


Ok sorry we couldn't be of more help and best of luck.

FWIW the reason he couldn't have been of more help is because you were fairly rude to him at the end: "It's not for you it's for me". While being rude might not have been your intention, it could certaintly be interpreted that way.

Do you think he only installs one exact type of shock on every TJ that comes through the shop door? Do you think he only installs one exact type of lift kit on every Jeep that comes through the door?

 

[glwood]

Curious: What did you do to correct it?

Rough Country adjustable rear track bar.

 

[Billwynburger]

FWIW the reason he couldn't have been of more help is because you were fairly rude to him at the end: "It's not for you it's for me". While being rude might not have been your intention, it could certaintly be interpreted that way.

Do you think he only installs one exact type of shock on every TJ that comes through the shop door? Do you think he only installs one exact type of lift kit on every Jeep that comes through the door?

I don't want Teraflex or OME shocks.

Ive done the ranchos. They work decent. I can tell you the OME spring and shock combo rides nicer tho.
The new Teraflex ones are great as well. Installed one last week. Rode great. Metalcloak is softer.
If you wanna do OME, (this is the combo I would use.)

It's not for you, it's for me.......totally justifiable and the truth

Maybe it could be interpreted as rude. Obviously you considered it rude. It's not about you either but since you're making it about you: If you were trying to purchase something very specific and someone kept talking you into buying another brand you didn't want would you bend over and buy it to be nice? Or refuse and buy the brand you want and are going to pay for?