Surprise 220 V electrical

AndyG

AndyG

Because some other guys are perverts
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As I’m writing this I’m still a little bit disturbed about the situation.

The reason being is I’m really not going to know next time.

When something happens that is close to being disastrous you really want to learn a lesson- And I’ll never forget this could happen at the same time I am deeply concerned that the same thing could happen again just as easily tomorrow.

We’re doing a very extensive remodel and we are deeply into the electrical work- At the end of the day the customers breakers start going crazy and the air conditioning quits upstairs.

Of course we are the prime suspect.

It Is the end of the day today and I’m exhausted and hungry but we are not going to abandon a customer and I hang out and wait on the electrician and he comes- he really is concerned about the upstairs unit which is out of our scope of work and goes up in the attic with me - He sees a little panel and wants to investigate the wiring in the back and quickly takes it apart-

Sure enough someone for some strange reason maybe 40 years ago took a 2 conductor non grounded wire and jumped into this box to get 220 and ran the wire a short distance across the attic (now under the loose fill insulation) and out the exterior wall and down behind the brick- Somewhere over the years someone decided to cut the wire and rolled it up and it’s been live behind the masonry for decades-

When our guy was pulling wires he accidentally hung the thing and it moved over and got on the metal ductwork

This is the same ductwork we were just working on in water under the house that we were trying to remedy.

40 amp 220.

This was one of the scariest things that I’ve ran into in my 30 plus years in the trades.

Not only did we have no idea we had no way of fathoming that anything could be going on like this-

I had been in the attic.

It was not at all visible from the interior ...and if you saw the wire...It’s just another wire in a house that had major electrical rework done maybe three times or so over the years.

I am extremely grateful no one was hurt and thankful my awesome electrician was observant and didn’t try to get out too fast late on a friday.

When I think about all the connections and all the scenarios in addition to all the fasteners and missing nail plates out in the market, I’m amazed you don’t hear a fire truck every 30 minutes.

At the same time realistically if you could hear everything in America, you probably would.

Bad work hurts people.

I would love to know if there is any practical way during a remodel that you could put a sensor on metal ductwork to tell if for any reason it became live.
 
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Isn't there something called trace voltage or surface voltage? I know on an industrial battery, you can pick something up in the air around it. Also, I have a fluke non-contact voltmeter for checking circuits. It will sense voltage without actually touching a terminal or wire.

Seems like something should exist already. Scary stuff. Glad everyone is ok
 
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AndyG said:
As I’m writing this I’m still a little bit disturbed about the situation.

The reason being is I’m really not going to know next time.

When something happens that is close to being disastrous you really want to learn a lesson- And I’ll never forget this could happen at the same time I am deeply concerned that the same thing could happen again just as easily tomorrow.

We’re doing a very extensive remodel and we are deeply into the electrical work- At the end of the day the customers breakers start going crazy and the air conditioning quits upstairs.

Of course we are the prime suspect.

It Is the end of the day today and I’m exhausted and hungry but we are not going to abandon a customer and I hang out and wait on the electrician and he comes- he really is concerned about the upstairs unit which is out of our scope of work and goes up in the attic with me - He sees a little panel and wants to investigate the wiring in the back and quickly takes it apart-

Sure enough someone for some strange reason maybe 40 years ago took a 2 conductor non grounded wire and jumped into this box to get 220 and ran the wire a short distance across the attic (now under the loose fill insulation) and out the exterior wall and down behind the brick- Somewhere over the years someone decided to cut the wire and rolled it up and it’s been live behind the masonry for decades-

When our guy was pulling wires he accidentally hung the thing and it moved over and got on the metal ductwork

This is the same ductwork we were just working on in water under the house that we were trying to remedy.

40 amp 220.

This was one of the scariest things that I’ve ran into in my 30 plus years in the trades.

Not only did we have no idea we had no way of fathoming that anything could be going on like this-

I had been in the attic.

It was not at all visible from the interior ...and if you saw the wire...It’s just another wire in a house that had major electrical rework done maybe three times or so over the years.

I am extremely grateful no one was hurt and thankful my awesome electrician was observant and didn’t try to get out too fast late on a friday.

When I think about all the connections and all the scenarios in addition to all the fasteners and missing nail plates out in the market, I’m amazed you don’t hear a fire truck every 30 minutes.

At the same time realistically if you could hear everything in America, you probably would.

Bad work hurts people.

I would love to know if there is any practical way during a remodel that you could put a sensor on metal ductwork to tell if for any reason it became live.
Click to expand...

A multimeter?

I've done work on off grid houses that had voltage on ground and neutral wires. I found out by shocking myself. These days I'm careful not to have one hand on wires and the other on any potential ground point. That way when(not if) i get shocked its across one hand or arm. Not across my heart and stops it.
 
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The joy of older houses. I've been dealing with strange and wonderful electric "work" done by an obvious idiot since we moved into the thing. I am aware of an abandoned 220 leg in my attic as well.
 
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AndyG said:
I would love to know if there is any practical way during a remodel that you could put a sensor on metal ductwork to tell if for any reason it became live.
Click to expand...
Any kind of siren that requires 120V AC can be wired to a metal conductor and the neutral (white) is just a system ground, Vs a (green) direct earth ground. As you know this, just elaborating for rhe other readers.

I think its impractival and wont be used much, better off verifying wires dead , and mains off before touching them. Perhaps start at the “raceway” and check for any double lugged entry feeds to ensure no additional panels , and pulling panel covers to see inside no fukkery waiting

Im an electrical worker , but I do medium voltage and high voltage (4Kv-765Kv) which is transmission and distribution. After reading your story, it does not surprise me. Im from inner city Chicago and We have 4Kv induction regulators on system over 100 years old still. We have alot of homes still usin screw in fuses & seen alot of ancient hack work.
PJVudgG.jpg


Its not exclusive to urban areas….just the age of some of the homes predates the 20th century so….and it was the wild west back then with no real “code” or code enforcement. Plus hiring a licensed electrician is $$$ and people dont like spending it, so assume the worst ALWAYS

My wife is a project managar at one of Chicagolands largest construction bidding teams here and just lost an 11 year veteran electrician. 63 years old, He was found stuck inside a medium voltage (4Kv-34Kv) area sizzling, no proper PPE, no 2nd man

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-wor...cution-homan-square-pumping-station/14617173/
1714220970355.jpeg
 
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Weird how common that is. I found a live 220V loose in my attic in a house I owned 15 years ago. The AC was a vertical down flow in the garage, so maybe it had been in the attic at some point and got moved. I hung a 2x4 box to a truss member well above the insulation and ran the wire to it, wire nutted and electrical taped inside so it was insulated and easily visible.

My brother basically burned his house down when he cut through the 220 to his AC unit with a sawzall during a remodel. It was laying loose on top of the ceiling drywall instead of stapled on top of the joist. Had to tear the house down to studs, rewire and rebuild half of the roof.
 
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We bought a farm and building site with two old houses. The water well power originates from one of those house's fuse panel.
I brought in a breaker box and in the process "cleaned" up some wiring.
There was a 12 gauge rubber coated flexible cord that exited outdoors near the fuse panel and was draped up and along the soffit. I could see the end hanging under the soffit was cut off and bare. Like a dumbass assumed it was dead and proceeded to cut it off with my cable cutters.
Yep it was hot, no shock (luckily) but the cable cutters now have a nice horseshoe burned into them. Fuses did their job.

Previous owner was the boss man at the Rural Electric co-op. Obviously no fear.
 
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I knew there would be some amazing stories.

Now I’m reminded of my house that was wired by my father-in-law...The former head of above ground electrical construction for Huntsville utilities- He did not bias a wire in a stud and we hit it with a nail gun and it shorted it out and nearly burned down the house.
 
AndyG said:
You can look up power theft in Third World countries and you can’t believe what you see coming out of a transfer- Going down to the ground and kids riding bicycles over it.

Future Darwin award winner right there.
Click to expand...

You shouldn’t look that stuff up.

1714227838289.gif
 
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Always test and never assume a circuit is dead. Whenever you check a circuit always use the live-dead-live test. Using a meter, test the circuit to verify it is hot, then shut down power to the circuit and test for no voltage. Next test a known live circuit to verify that the meter is still operating correctly. I've seen circuit breakers fail to open with the lever in the off position, and I've seen them fail to close with the lever in the closed/on position. The NCVT I linked to earlier is a good quick way to test if a circuit is hot, but it should not be used to do the live-dead-live test. In fact NFPA 70E does not allow it.
 
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@Rich1961 has given you the best advice both in post #5 and post #14. Testing with a meter is only as good as the meter operator and the available ground. The non-contact tester shown in post #5 is the best one available. Make sure to get the 90-1,000 volt one, not the low voltage HVAC one. Use it to check metal parts when you are in any area that makes you grounded. You can also check metal parts by using the back of your hand, you don't grab onto them because your muscles will contract and you won't be able to let go.

Armored cable is especially dangerous, it can lay there with the outer sheath energized for decades waiting for an unsuspecting worker to get between it and ground, BTDT, always check.

BTW the non-contact tester will give false positives on anything that is not grounded and in this case use caution around those items and perform additional testing with a meter and a known good ground, not earth! A solid connection to the main grounding system which is connected to the grounded/common/neutral conductor whatever you choose to call it. You can bring in a good known ground by using an extension cord plugged into a grounded non-GFCI outlet, you can also use the neutral for ground for testing when there is no grounding conductor available. Make sure to test your known good ground before and after the test as Rich1961 explained in post #14.

I use the NC tester to see if 3 wire outlets in old houses are really grounded, if they are not it will start singing 6" away from the wall plate. Same with light fixtures.

This is a good reason why metal parts should be bonded to the main grounding system. The furnace should be bonded which should bond the duct which should trip a breaker if hot wires come into contact, but with poor contact surfaces this doesn't always happen.
 
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srimes said:
Any feedback about this guy?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectroBOOM/comments/ymrb1f/guy_steals_electricity_from_powerline_to_power
Click to expand...

That took too long to watch
However I see 3 individual phases of most likely distribution voltages.

Distribution voltages up there are typically either 4,000V in old urban areas, and 12,000V to 34,000V in urban to suburban.

You cant hook up to those kind of voltages and power anything that uses 120V without a transformer downconverting it thru induction. It just doesnt work that way. Ignore retards that pretend to do this, YOU WILL DIE

Not only that, the moment you touch a power line, youre changing potential if you are on a ladder or the pole. You are going to become part of that circuit to ground. This is why we find illegals in substations TRYING to steal copper and get electrocuted til death and beyond. Squirrels and birds can touch them because they arent changing potential

This is also why Jr Lineman can die when installing a NEW utility pole, next to an old one being replaced, and the pole does not have the proper shields placed at the top when it swings near a LIVE phase , and accidentally makes contact.

BOOM, that voltage tries ro find ground, and the Jr lineman may have 20,000volt gloves on, but to manage a big 40-65 foot pole swingin from a digger, they use their unprotected body…..and thats a no no for this reason. We just lost one this year to that , as well as touching live triplex low voltage. All of it can kill
 
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CreepinDeth said:
That took too long to watch
However I see 3 individual phases of most likely distribution voltages.

Distribution voltages up there are typically either 4,000V in old urban areas, and 12,000V to 34,000V in urban to suburban.

You cant hook up to those kind of voltages and power anything that uses 120V without a transformer downconverting it thru induction. It just doesnt work that way. Ignore retards that pretend to do this, YOU WILL DIE

Not only that, the moment you touch a power line, youre changing potential if you are on a ladder or the pole. You are going to become part of that circuit to ground. This is why we find illegals in substations TRYING to steal copper and get electrocuted til death and beyond. Squirrels and birds can touch them because they arent changing potential

This is also why Jr Lineman can die when installing a NEW utility pole, next to an old one being replaced, and the pole does not have the proper shields placed at the top when it swings near a LIVE phase , and accidentally makes contact.

BOOM, that voltage tries ro find ground, and the Jr lineman may have 20,000volt gloves on, but to manage a big 40-65 foot pole swingin from a digger, they use their unprotected body…..and thats a no no for this reason. We just lost one this year to that , as well as touching live triplex low voltage. All of it can kill
Click to expand...

High voltage and transmission lines scare the shit out of me. We get rudimentary training about power discharge from downed lines during accidents and current differences as you walk towards or try to escape. We are taught to hop with feet together rather than let the potential(?) Or voltage difference between your body parts become enough to fry us.
 
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Rickyd said:
High voltage and transmission lines scare the shit out of me. We get rudimentary training about power discharge from downed lines during accidents and current differences as you walk towards or try to escape. We are taught to hop with feet together rather than let the potential(?) Or voltage difference between your body parts become enough to fry us.
Click to expand...

I've never heard this, but it makes a lot of sense. What's the context? How close/far from a downed line, etc?
 
Rickyd said:
High voltage and transmission lines scare the shit out of me. We get rudimentary training about power discharge from downed lines during accidents and current differences as you walk towards or try to escape. We are taught to hop with feet together rather than let the potential(?) Or voltage difference between your body parts become enough to fry us.
Click to expand...

We are taught differently
Do not LIFT your feet off the pavement, and shimmy

The reasoning behind it is, the moment a single foot raises and goes further, it changes potential due to distance from the downed power line. The estimated range a distribution line voltage risk is 35ft.

Most people will not see a downed transmission line, thats on the big towers. However, distribution is the utility pole downed the most in storms and accidents in neighborhoods where its fed by overhead cans

Jumping is the same concept, but now youre putting yourself at risk if you fall, or one foot comes down faster

For those of you unclear still, think of a radiating circle from the downed power line. The closer you are , the stronger. So your goal is to egress safely, and ea foot placement individually has less potential change then the one closer to the source. That change of potential from the source can arc thru your body if a foot raises and goes further away

The goal with electricity is never change potential or become part of the path to short

Also NEVER touch a vehicle with a downed power line on it. Its got insulators on it from grounding out (tires) however, if you touch or get too close to the car, you just gave it a path to ground. Electricity will jump (arc)
 
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