I got a siping tool from Speedway Motors, it's not an easy job but if you only have to do two it wont be too bad. You can cut any depth you want within reason.
Anybody stud their mud terrains?
- Thread starter ejay
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OP
The way the guy at the shop explained...very roughly...he could do it by angling the cutter so it wouldn't dig into the tire past the tread but having that thin of a cut would not do much in regard to winter grip. Dunno if he was full of shit.
OP
I don't either, you can easily sipe the total height of the tread block and I don't ever sipe more than 1/4" which is pretty close to what you've got. The sipes work when they are really shallow, they don't do it shallow normally because everybody would bitch when the sipes disappear in a few thousand miles, at least that's my understanding of how they work.
Edit: big difference between machine and doing it by hand as well as far as what might work
+1 on this,... a true winter tire will be better all around than any studded mud or AT tire. If you need studs, think about a winter tire instead... really think about it. Outside of a small range of temps on ice, studs aren't that great and can actually reduce traction on just wet roads for example.
Never studded mud terrains, but have run them in the snow/ice. I had a set of 1st gen BFG Muds that were tall and super skinny on a 2500 GMC, and it was an absolute tank in the snow. I believe the width of them had more to do with that than the actual tread pattern.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that wide mud/sand terrain tires suck ass in the winter. I had 37×12.5 Military OZs on my F350, and they were downright scary. Cant count the number of times I went to turn down a side street and kept going straight. lol
M/T Baja Claws suck in the snow too. They're like big snow shoes.
The best winter tires I've had were Blizzaks.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that wide mud/sand terrain tires suck ass in the winter. I had 37×12.5 Military OZs on my F350, and they were downright scary. Cant count the number of times I went to turn down a side street and kept going straight. lol
M/T Baja Claws suck in the snow too. They're like big snow shoes.
The best winter tires I've had were Blizzaks.
OP
So I've got the gauge cluster out and being rebuilt for the Excursion so I've been forced to drive the Jeep in the snow for the past few days.
KM2s suck in the snow. I can compensate. More specifically, they suck in the ice. More than other tires. My work truck has shitty Firestone ATs that do OK. My Excursion has KO2s that do pretty well. These 12.5 mud tires are better in the snow than in the ice as expected. I'm just glad that the roads are pretty well maintained around here.
I don't know what I'm going to do but I've got to do something. Maybe I'll just buy the tool and do the siping myself.
KM2s suck in the snow. I can compensate. More specifically, they suck in the ice. More than other tires. My work truck has shitty Firestone ATs that do OK. My Excursion has KO2s that do pretty well. These 12.5 mud tires are better in the snow than in the ice as expected. I'm just glad that the roads are pretty well maintained around here.
I don't know what I'm going to do but I've got to do something. Maybe I'll just buy the tool and do the siping myself.
Late coming into this but here are some things to consider. Yes you can stud mud terrains and yes even used ones. The trick is finding a tire dealer (if you don't want to do it yourself, I'll explain) that will drill and stud any tire as long as there is enough tread depth to safely drill for the stud size being used.
You can have any tire siped, but there are some things again to consider. If you do an extensive amount of gravel or rocky dirt road driving you want to keep the sipe shallow because it WILL cause chunking of the tread (which is why most dealers won't sipe beyond 1/2 tread depth and recommend only 1/4 depth).
It's good practice to only sipe the center 2/3 of the tread section and leave the shoulders intact (not mandatory though). Ice and wet road traction is greatly improved (especially one solid tread blocked tires such as MTs) over a non siped tire. (look at the amount of factory siping on snow tires)
As to tire composition... Dedicated snow tires are admittedly softer compounds than your average HT (highway tread), AT, and many MT's, but many MT's are made with a much softer compound than what they used to be just because of the nature of the sport they are being used in. So saying their compound is what makes a MT crap for snow driving is misguided. Tread pattern and contact patch are the biggest contributing factors to traction on any surface, snow, ice, wet asphalt, etc... Massively wide tires with no siping (factory or otherwise) and huge voids, designed to eject material (not compact), between tread blocks are inherently not going to do well on any slick road surface. That being said you can make a MT perform well for winter driving with siped tread and studs. I do it every year over a mountain pass that is not maintained by the county or state.
Now for the DIYer, post factory siping is simply slicing (not grooving) the tread blocks on a tire. The more slices you add the better traction you achieve. Most tire dealers don't like the idea of siping used tires because of liability issues, but it can be done, you just need to insure there are absolutely no rocks stuck in any of the area you are having siped.
Studding a non-pinned or, yes a used tire, is also something that can be done by a shop or yourself. First you need to procure a stud gun and studs (studs come in different depths) that are appropriate for the depth of your tread.
Next you need to "drill" a hole for the stud. Now this can be done 2 ways, one is with (you guessed it) a drill bit (same size as the stud diameter or slightly (1/32) smaller), or you can get a drum brake spring retaining pin, and cut the head off and sharpen the spade end into a "T" shape, (my choice and it helps to cut the "seat" for the stud. Once you decide which "drill" method you want to use, set the depth to the depth of the stud body (excluding the hardened pin head), If the drill bit is too long cut it down so you can use the drill chuck as the stop when it hits the tread face.
Stud guns are not cheap by any means but if you know someone at your local tire store you might be able to talk them into letting you rent or borrow one.
You can have any tire siped, but there are some things again to consider. If you do an extensive amount of gravel or rocky dirt road driving you want to keep the sipe shallow because it WILL cause chunking of the tread (which is why most dealers won't sipe beyond 1/2 tread depth and recommend only 1/4 depth).
It's good practice to only sipe the center 2/3 of the tread section and leave the shoulders intact (not mandatory though). Ice and wet road traction is greatly improved (especially one solid tread blocked tires such as MTs) over a non siped tire. (look at the amount of factory siping on snow tires)
As to tire composition... Dedicated snow tires are admittedly softer compounds than your average HT (highway tread), AT, and many MT's, but many MT's are made with a much softer compound than what they used to be just because of the nature of the sport they are being used in. So saying their compound is what makes a MT crap for snow driving is misguided. Tread pattern and contact patch are the biggest contributing factors to traction on any surface, snow, ice, wet asphalt, etc... Massively wide tires with no siping (factory or otherwise) and huge voids, designed to eject material (not compact), between tread blocks are inherently not going to do well on any slick road surface. That being said you can make a MT perform well for winter driving with siped tread and studs. I do it every year over a mountain pass that is not maintained by the county or state.
Now for the DIYer, post factory siping is simply slicing (not grooving) the tread blocks on a tire. The more slices you add the better traction you achieve. Most tire dealers don't like the idea of siping used tires because of liability issues, but it can be done, you just need to insure there are absolutely no rocks stuck in any of the area you are having siped.
Studding a non-pinned or, yes a used tire, is also something that can be done by a shop or yourself. First you need to procure a stud gun and studs (studs come in different depths) that are appropriate for the depth of your tread.
Next you need to "drill" a hole for the stud. Now this can be done 2 ways, one is with (you guessed it) a drill bit (same size as the stud diameter or slightly (1/32) smaller), or you can get a drum brake spring retaining pin, and cut the head off and sharpen the spade end into a "T" shape, (my choice and it helps to cut the "seat" for the stud. Once you decide which "drill" method you want to use, set the depth to the depth of the stud body (excluding the hardened pin head), If the drill bit is too long cut it down so you can use the drill chuck as the stop when it hits the tread face.
Stud guns are not cheap by any means but if you know someone at your local tire store you might be able to talk them into letting you rent or borrow one.
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OP
I may have done the dance a time or two.
Worked for Les Schwab for a number of years. Learned about drilling and studding tires at a store in Madras, OR. Not quite Prineville but the closest store to it. We drilled and studded all the emergency vehicle tires every winter. Fire trucks and ambulances, primarily 22.5 and bigger semi tires.
You sound like you know what you are taking about but I think you missed it there. AFAIK the rubber compounds used in all MT tires significantly hardens at something like 40F regardless of how soft they may be compared to other MTs or "all season" tires. The softest MTs, competition stickies, must be removed before encountering freezing weather then should be stored at temps above 32F to avoid damage. The compounds used for modern winter tires like the Blizzak are specifically designed to remain pliable in sub-freezing conditions. In sumer temperatures a Blizzak or other tire using a winter compound would soften significantly and wear out very quickly.
Aside from my experience working in the retail tire industry, I have burned through more than my fair share of tires from passenger tires to commercial truck tires, and from my experience MTs over the years have gone back and forth on tire compounds like a yo-yo. I run 2 different sets of tires on my work truck (US mail contract route) and the MT's I have studded and siped wear for winter out faster than the AT's I run in the summer. Winters here typically run below 40 consistently dropping to close to 0 and below. Never once have I experienced an issue with tire degradation from cold weather. You bring up "competition stickies", you'd have to be crazy to run something like that on a nearly 9000lb, 3500 Ram diesel loaded down with a custom snowmobile rack and a 9.5' V-plow. I usually get 2 seasons out of each set of tires before they get too low on tread to be usable for me. (Winter time not enough tread to keep studs in, summer time rocks causing flats.)
Snow tires such as the Bridgestone Blizzak and others like them will typically last the same amount of time as the MT's I run in the winter (about 2 seasons). I stopped running dedicated snow tires because the the chains I run had a tendency to tear up the sidewalls more readily than they do the MT's. (Another advantage of the MT is it's designed to be more rugged and puncture proof) AS for traction, I can not honestly say the dedicated snow tires worked any better or worse than the studded and siped MT's I currently run. I do know that in deeper snow the snow tires have more of a tendency to plug up and spin vs dig, which will get you stuck in short order when you are doing what I do.
OP
damn glad we dont get much snow here, i'd hate to have to buy a new set of tires every winter !
Well that sucks!!, No old gas/service stations around where you live either I suppose. Too bad you not close to here, I could borrow the stud gun and feeder and I'd help you knock them out.