Brake questions

speeding_infraction

TJ Addict
Original poster
Joined
Jun 4, 2025
Messages
2,378
Location
Knoxville, TN
I've been having issues with a pedal that goes to the floor while running for a while now, so I bled the master cylinder tonight using this tutorial from Blaine:

Plugged port method for bench bleeding a master cylinder. I won't type this out again so someone should save it and stick it in a readily located place for future reference.

Most BB (bench bleed) a master using the little hoses that circulate fluid out of the bore back into the reservoir. The problem with that method is it is very slow, not very effective, and tells you nothing about the condition of the master or how well you have managed to remove the air.

The PP method tells you if the master is good, whether you have the air out, and gives you a rough idea of how much you have to extend or shorten the booster push rod.

Acquire plugs that seal off the two ports in the master. If you have the little hose kit, you can put screws in the holes after you cut the little hose barbs off.



Put the master in a vise clamped ONLY on the flange. Never clamp onto the body where the bore is.
Plug the ports, fill reservoir about half way with brake fluid.

Loosen the port plug closest to you and push the master PR (push rod) all the way in and hold.
Close the port plug and let the PR back out.
Repeat until fluid is present at that port. Close the port plug.

Move to the port furthest way and repeat the process.

Once you have fluid at both ports and the plugs tightened to seal them off, continue pushing the PR in and letting it back out until it will only allow about 1/8" or so of movement. Generally about 4-7 cycles and it will come up solid. Solid tells you there is no air in the bore. Start to finish after the ports are plugged is about 2 minutes generally.

1- that little bit of movement is important. It tells you the master is good. It is the distance the pistons move inside the bore past the ports that let fluid into the bore from the reservoir. They have to move past them to build pressure and push that out to the wheel cylinders. Otherwise, all the master would do is push fluid back up into the reservoir.
2- the ports also exist to allow the normal expansion of brake fluid as it gets warm. If the fluid can not go back into the reservoir as the fluid expands, the brakes will self apply.
3-the PP method lets you check to see if fluid is bypassing the cup seals. If you can't get it hard to push and locked up solid after that 1/8" or so of initial travel, the cup seals are likely bad or similar.
4- some masters have 1/16" and some have a lot more. Pay attention to it so you can adjust the booster push rod as needed.

After the BB, get the crap out of the way in front of the booster, remove the vacuum seal from the master and slide it on the studs. Square it up and see what the gap is when you feel the booster gently bottom out on the booster push rod. It should be roughly about .030 or the thickness of 2 typical business cards. If it is more, you run the risk of pushing in the booster push rod and moving the cup seals past the ports. That can make it very difficult to bleed the system.

If it is less, you are adding pedal travel unnecessarily. The end of the push rod is adjustable. Grab the splined area below the hex with some needle nose vise-grips and turn the hex with a 7mm nut driver.

Once adjusted, reinstall the vacuum seal and finish the install.

This method has worked for us every single time without fail. No other way has been this effective.

Now the pedal feels much firmer but the brakes are not effective at all. I bled the lines afterwards, so I'm not sure what the next step is to make the brakes work properly. Any thoughts? I am happy to answer any questions in regards to brake maintenance, just ask please. I really want to drive this thing on the road and haven't been able to do it safely since the brakes stopped working properly.
 
I've been having issues with a pedal that goes to the floor while running for a while now, so I bled the master cylinder tonight using this tutorial from Blaine:



Now the pedal feels much firmer but the brakes are not effective at all. I bled the lines afterwards, so I'm not sure what the next step is to make the brakes work properly. Any thoughts? I am happy to answer any questions in regards to brake maintenance, just ask please. I really want to drive this thing on the road and haven't been able to do it safely since the brakes stopped working properly.

It could be that the master cylinder is leaking internally . Basically the piston cup allows fluid leakage past it , not allowing full pressure to go out to the caliper/wheel cylinders .
 
  • Like
Reactions: lBasket
It could be that the master cylinder is leaking internally . Basically the piston cup allows fluid leakage past it , not allowing full pressure to go out to the caliper/wheel cylinders .

I originally thought that as well, however it passed the test of only going in an 1/8" after bleeding the MC. could it be anything else?
 
I've been having issues with a pedal that goes to the floor while running for a while now,
Expand that some. Started it, hit the pedal and it goes to the floor with no other symptoms?
Now the pedal feels much firmer but the brakes are not effective at all. I bled the lines afterwards, so I'm not sure what the next step is to make the brakes work properly. Any thoughts? I am happy to answer any questions in regards to brake maintenance, just ask please. I really want to drive this thing on the road and haven't been able to do it safely since the brakes stopped working properly.
What components are in use for what tire size?
 
Expand that some. Started it, hit the pedal and it goes to the floor with no other symptoms?

Pedal felt good when it wasn't running, with foot on the brake I'd start it and the pedal would sink pretty far (maybe 70%, I think?). Then the brakes would work but not well at all. Now, the pedal travel is gone but the brakes are just as bad.
 
Pedal felt good when it wasn't running,
The only time that isn't true is when there is no fluid in the system. Even lots of air with the calipers upside down will still feel good with no vacuum.
with foot on the brake I'd start it and the pedal would sink pretty far (maybe 70%, I think?).
Which is exactly the test for air in the system.
Then the brakes would work but not well at all.
How long did you drive it like that?
Now, the pedal travel is gone but the brakes are just as bad.
Try several hard back to back stops from about 30-40 mph "safely" and see if you're dealing with glazed pads from not enough braking force out of the system.
 
  • Like
Reactions: speeding_infraction
Two issues were contributing to the bad braking performance. I'm gonna call myself an idiot in advance so no one else has to. The drums were out of adjustment and I forgot to put the vacuum seal back on after adjusting the pushrod inside the vacuum booster. Braking performance is much better now. Thanks Blaine!
 
Two issues were contributing to the bad braking performance. I'm gonna call myself an idiot in advance so no one else has to. The drums were out of adjustment and I forgot to put the vacuum seal back on after adjusting the pushrod inside the vacuum booster. Braking performance is much better now. Thanks Blaine!
I'd still like to know what allowed air into the master that made it need bench bleeding?
 
  • Like
Reactions: speeding_infraction
I'd still like to know what allowed air into the master that made it need bench bleeding?

I'm curious about that as well. The brakes worked great for about 2 wheeling trips after I bought it last July, then they got really soft. I don't know what could have caused air getting into the master.
 
Even though your issue is solved please allow me to chime in with another suggestion: If you’ve not already done so, take the time to replace the three flexible brake lines to your front calipers & rear T-block. I can’t tell you how many brake issues I’ve experienced with older vehicles (which all of our TJs are regardless of mileage) due to collapsing brake hoses. Whenever I buy an older vehicle I just factor in the cost of new hoses and replace them as preventative maintenance.