Third transmission leak in 4 years—what is the dealer missing here?

[primetime4]

Hello All... my 2001 TJ with 3 speed auto needs to go back in for a transmission fluid leak. The leak is not major but definitely creates about a 6 inch stain if after sitting for 2 nights and appears to be coming from the rear of the pan. What is a little odd is that this will be the 3rd time this needs to be addressed within the last 5000 miles. My Jeep is pretty much living out it's days as a fun weekend vehicle so I only drive it occasionally. The dealer serviced the transmission filter less than 4 years ago and replaced the pan gasket. Less than 2 years and 2000 miles later, the transmission started leaking so I brought it back in for repair just out of warranty. Now, the exact same thing is happening less than 1000 miles later.

How sensitive are these bolts to torque? Could they be under or over-torquing it or could it just be bad luck? I imagine that the mechanic is not dropping the skid to do this service so maybe they are cutting corners? The gasket for both cases from what I could tell was still soft and fresh looking but fluid is still clearly making it's way out.

Thanks.

 

[AMS417]

Pan could be bent or deformed at the sealing surface. Need to have them check that it is nice and flat, if not, replace it. Over torque and/or a cheap gasket can cause leaks as well. You sure its leaking at the pan? Could it be leaking from a different seal this time?

 

[Jerry Bransford]

That leak could also be coming from the input shaft seal of the transfer case. It would leak the same red ATF as the transmission has inside it.

 

[primetime4]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I took some quick pics to show what's happening if you can let me know what you think. There is 1 large spot and 1 smaller spot that both appear to align with the rear of the pan. I can't imagine a dealership getting this wrong 2 times in a row but I guess anything is possible.

 

[AMS417]

Could be the pan again. Take it back, ask them to make it right.

 

[Rubicon John]

That leak could also be coming from the input shaft seal of the transfer case. It would leak the same red ATF as the transmission has inside it.

Very true. You could try adding dye to the transfer case and see if it appears in the puddle.

 

[primetime4]

Quick update: I took my Jeep back to the dealer who kept it for inspection over a few days to make sure they got it right. They ended up recommending a RMS replacement (I did not see any leaks but it has been about 6 years since this was last done so I went ahead with it) and suggested the transmission pan was leaking due to rust on the mating service of the pan.

Since this was the third leak within 4 years, they paid for the new pan and I paid for the labor plus the RMS work. Got the Jeep back about 2 weeks ago to find that the pan is immediately still leaking in the exact same spot. All of the bolt heads appear to be wet with the rear bolts being the worse. I can clearly see seepage although it does appear to be improved as the puddle below is not growing quite as fast.

At this point, I just got under the Jeep and torqued the bolt heads down by hand and was able to move each about a quarter turn (just guessing but I did not force it and did not need to for it to move). It looks like each was torqued about the same amount just judging by hand which I am assuming was to spec. This seems to improve things although I am still getting some seepage that is hitting the floor. This morning, I got under it again and torqued each bolt even a little more to see if it stops.

The dealer is using the same black gasket that was on the last time and I remember originally having a red colored gasket which could have been gasket sealer but that also ended up leaking although not immediately as with the black gasket. There does not appear to be any sealer used with the last two applications. It is possible that the factory torque spec is not enough to properly seal or does anyone think I should take it back and ask the dealer to install with as much sealant as they think would need to address this once and for all?

Thanks all. And by the way, now my RMS leaks a tiny bit where I previously detected none.

 

[Jim Byrne]

Stop taking it to the dealer---if the leak keeps coming back they don't know what they are doing.
Take it to a transmission shop. Also dealers usually charge more than independent shops.
They should have fixed it free.

 

[Chris]

Thanks for the update! I also agree though that it's time to stop taking it to the dealership for sure.

 

[KevinC74]

Agree with Jim and Chris, that dealership doesn't need to touch your Jeep again. I'd hit them for a full refund since nothing was ever fixed and now you have a RMS leak.

 

[T A]

Post above mentioned dying the TC fluid. I am also chasing a leak in this spot - what would I use to dye the TC fluid?

 

[Rubicon John]

Post above mentioned dying the TC fluid. I am also chasing a leak in this spot - what would I use to dye the TC fluid?

The auto parts store should sell a dye meant for this purpose.

 

[KevinC74]

I've used this type in my BMW.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JFHNTM/?tag=wranglerorg-20

Been 30ish years since I've trusted any shop to touch my vehicles after a Ford dealership played similar game with a transmission in my 89 mustang.

 

[dimension12]

I think the dealership is not removing the skid plate and not using a torque wrench. I would be asking for a refund now that the rear main is leaking. Dealers are no better than indy shops. They only have access to all the manuals and special tools. The techs get paid and don’t care about a reputation. Indy shops do better work because they do.

 

[primetime4]

Well my Jeep has been at the dealer for most of June and into July at this point as they tried to figure out this transmission leak. I brought the Jeep back to the dealer after the pan replacement did not completely fix the issue. They called me the same day saying everything looked good and that the fluid was residual from the original leak. I explained that the fluid is new since I got under the Jeep and thoroughly cleaned everything hoping to confirm the fix or where the leak was coming from. They kept the Jeep for another few days to observe. I called them a few days later for an update and the service tech indicated that they replaced the pan gasket (again) and that I was good to go (I do not think they actually did anything new at this point but will give them the benefit of the doubt). As I was on my way to pick up the Jeep, dealer calls and said he just went out to check to make sure and sure enough it was still leaking.

Fast forward to this week and it looks like they finally figured out the issue is selector shaft seal which I would say has been the culprit all along. There is a great how to on the forum for this very repair:

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...ransfer-case-range-selector-shaft-seal.31021/
According to other videos online that describe beads forming around the transmission pan bolts, this does appear to be exactly the issue.

The dealer tried to get me to pay for the 1 hour of labor to replace this since they actually dropped the skid already but channeling the power of this forum I told them no way. I already paid for 3 services that were probably not necessary which they quickly agreed with.

Thanks again to everyone for all of the input and feedback. I knew Jerry was onto something with the input shaft as opposed to the transmission pan being the issue so I am glad I asked the question.

 

[qslim]

I think the dealership is not removing the skid plate and not using a torque wrench. I would be asking for a refund now that the rear main is leaking. Dealers are no better than indy shops. They only have access to all the manuals and special tools. The techs get paid and don’t care about a reputation. Indy shops do better work because they do.

IMHO based on a decade of working at the dealership level, dealership techs aren’t used to working on old stuff. The majority of repairs that go at dealerships are check engine lights, tires & fluid changes, and NVH complaints. Also, if your car is out of warranty then the repair isn’t surveyed by the manufacturer so the tech has less of an incentive to get it right the first time.
If you have a car under warranty take it to the dealership. If not, find a good indie shop that has good reviews & books appointments out several days.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

IMHO based on a decade of working at the dealership level, dealership techs aren’t used to working on old stuff. The majority of repairs that go at dealerships are check engine lights, tires & fluid changes, and NVH complaints. Also, if your car is out of warranty then the repair isn’t surveyed by the manufacturer so the tech has less of an incentive to get it right the first time.
If you have a car under warranty take it to the dealership. If not, find a good indie shop that has good reviews & books appointments out several days.

I only did 6 months as a tech at a Toyota dealership but I will agree with this 100%. I almost never touched anything that was past it's warranty period. Mostly oil changes, brakes, tire changes, recall and warranty work which could be anything from swapping out the rear springs on a 4Runner to replacing the sun visors. Some of the more experienced guys would swap out an engine when some dipshit went 25k without changing their oil, and some Camry's seemed to have an issue with leaking AC evaporators (under warranty of course). It's been half my life ago but I can't even one time recall addressing an oil leak.

 

[qslim]

I only did 6 months as a tech at a Toyota dealership but I will agree with this 100%. I almost never touched anything that was past it's warranty period. Mostly oil changes, brakes, tire changes, recall and warranty work which could be anything from swapping out the rear springs on a 4Runner to replacing the sun visors. Some of the more experienced guys would swap out an engine when some dipshit went 25k without changing their oil, and some Camry's seemed to have an issue with leaking AC evaporators (under warranty of course). It's been half my life ago but I can't even one time recall addressing an oil leak.

I left the industry for good a little over a decade ago as a Lexus master tech - I think I held a wrench maybe twice a week. It was mostly squeaks/rattles, infotainment issues, & putting miles on cars with equipment connected and recording data to send to engineers in Torrance when cars were doing goofy computer things. I always joked that I turned wrenches more on the weekends than I did when I was actually at work.

 

[T A]

I've been chasing my leak for a while & haven't been able to nail it down for sure yet.

When I was taking my center console out to paint it, I had to put it in 4L 4h etc and I noticed after that the leak seemed to have gotten a lot worse (judging by the puddle on the floor) and then back to the normal drip a few days after that. At the time I thought I just had some build up in the skid plate that decided to run out at that moment but now I'm thinking the selector may be it.

I'm assuming cycling the selector would do that?

Also, noob question - the transfer case is sealed from the transmission? So I need to check that level at the case underneath?

 

[Jim Byrne]

I've been chasing my leak for a while & haven't been able to nail it down for sure yet.

When I was taking my center console out to paint it, I had to put it in 4L 4h etc and I noticed after that the leak seemed to have gotten a lot worse (judging by the puddle on the floor) and then back to the normal drip a few days after that. At the time I thought I just had some build up in the skid plate that decided to run out at that moment but now I'm thinking the selector may be it.

I'm assuming cycling the selector would do that?

Also, noob question - the transfer case is sealed from the transmission? So I need to check that level at the case underneath?

Yes the both should be checked seperately