HP Dana 30 re-gear - pinion preload changed

[Mike_in_Riga]

Hello Fellow Members,

First, I want to thank @hosejockey61 for his amazing instructions on axle rebuilds & locker installs.

I am doing this exact setup from his video - with ARB locker, Revolut gears, and HP dana 30 from XJ.

The problem I encountered is the following:
after setting up pinion depth with a setup race (actually also with setup outer pinion bearing too [with filed down the inner surface of the bearing]), I have set up pinion preload using setup nut to the correct range of 15-20 in-pounds.

I have then inserted the final (a.k.a. non-setup) inner bearing race with all the shims; and using final (a.k.a. non-setup) outer bearing + baffle + oil ring have put everything together with the final new oval pinion nut.

This is where the problem appeared. At around 180 ftlb on the pinion nut, my pinion rotational torque is much lower than previously recorded 15-20 inlb... it's minuscule at <5.

Aside from the fact it is very frustrating, I am not sure what could have caused it...
I guess this is my first question - possible cause..

• Difference in setup vs final race/bearing (although unlikely - both were new);
• Maybe the one-time-use oval nut was too sharp (+ I used brake cleaner to clean the threads on the pinion); and the nut is not all the way it (again, very unlikely, as then I use a pneumatic impact wrench, I hear the distinct metal sound, and the nut is no longer rotating).

The second question is probably more important, and I would really appreciate the collective input - where do I go next:

1. remove the nut, disassemble, and re-do the preload shimming process to get the correct value (+ use new oval nut at the end + new oil seal)
2. something else? (maybe something else I can check before I start no.1)

I would also appreciate help with extra questions I have:

a. Is there a washer under the pinion nut (I was not taking the axle apart myself, so not sure how it was set up). In the video above @hosejockey61 does use a washer; however, in a separate thread, he mentions not to use a washer with the oval nut.

b. how do I assess the damage done by the oval but to the pinion threads? I am OK to remove the nut, and then be safe to put a new oval nut onto the thread (obviously at the end of the process, not during the setup).

Thank you all!

 

[SkylinesSuck]

Maybe the bearing race wasn't seated all the way to begin with and you just seated it?

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Maybe the bearing race wasn't seated all the way to begin with and you just seated it?

Thanks @SkylinesSuck, could be... but then again, it was a setup race (filed outer surface), easily sliding in and out, I presume it would be pulled all the way in each time, as I was tightening the setup nut during the shim adjusting process.

 

[hosejockey61]

I'm in a meeting all morning but will address your issues when I can if somebody else doesn't beat me to it.

 

[LJGreg]

I am doing the same with a dana 30 out of a 96 XJ. There was a washer under the nut.

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Thanks in advance @hosejockey61,

And thanks for confirming @LJGreg. And the nut you had was with our without a flange? Also, I thought LJs came with D44s, or that's just in the rear?

 

[LJGreg]

Thanks in advance @hosejockey61,

And thanks for confirming @LJGreg. And the nut you had was with our without a flange? Also, I thought LJs came with D44s, or that's just in the rear?

Nut is without a flange. Ya the LJ non-Rubicons came with a Dana 30 LP front and a Dana 44 rear.

 

[Blackjack]

Before you tear into it make sure to check you pattern and backlash to make sure there were no changes. There is always a chance from one race to another that there could be a difference or that your setup race was loose enough that until you got full pull of the nut against it that you sucked it all the way tight which will show up as a change in pattern.

If your pattern is good then the good news is all you have to do is correct the preload. You will want to do this with an old nut until you have it correct and then change it. As for the pinion nut washer if the nut you are using is flanged then no washer is needed and obviously you need a washer if it is not.

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Before you tear into it make sure to check you pattern and backlash to make sure there were no changes. There is always a chance from one race to another that there could be a difference or that your setup race was loose enough that until you got full pull of the nut against it that you sucked it all the way tight which will show up as a change in pattern.

If your pattern is good then the good news is all you have to do is correct the preload. You will want to do this with an old nut until you have it correct and then change it. As for the pinion nut washer if the nut you are using is flanged then no washer is needed and obviously you need a washer if it is not.

Good point on pattern & backlash, thanks @Blackjack . Will check those too. The only caveat in my mind is - too low preload on the pinion (i.e. my current situation) may affect the pattern (vs correct preload).
But since there is a bit of rotational resistance (around 5inlb), I will check it anyway.

Thanks again

 

[hosejockey61]

I have then inserted the final (a.k.a. non-setup) inner bearing race with all the shims; and using final (a.k.a. non-setup) outer bearing + baffle + oil ring have put everything together with the final new oval pinion nut.

This is where the problem appeared. At around 180 ftlb on the pinion nut, my pinion rotational torque is much lower than previously recorded 15-20 inlb... it's minuscule at <5.

No need for a setup outer bearing. They don't press on like a normal bearing, more like a really tight slip fit. To remove the pinion each time, I use a punch. Leave the nut on a couple of threads so the pinion doesn't fly out.

Aside from the fact it is very frustrating, I am not sure what could have caused it...
I guess this is my first question - possible cause..

• Difference in setup vs final race/bearing (although unlikely - both were new);
• Maybe the one-time-use oval nut was too sharp (+ I used brake cleaner to clean the threads on the pinion); and the nut is not all the way it (again, very unlikely, as then I use a pneumatic impact wrench, I hear the distinct metal sound, and the nut is no longer rotating).

There is a slight chance the bearings could be off by 1-2 thou. The more I study the craft, the more I hear about people saying they see a difference on occasion. A new pinion nut should have sharp threads, that's not your problem.

The second question is probably more important, and I would really appreciate the collective input - where do I go next:

1. remove the nut, disassemble, and re-do the preload shimming process to get the correct value (+ use new oval nut at the end + new oil seal)
2. something else? (maybe something else I can check before I start no.1)

Yes. But use your set up nut until you are sure your preload is correct at your desired final torque.

I would also appreciate help with extra questions I have:

a. Is there a washer under the pinion nut (I was not taking the axle apart myself, so not sure how it was set up). In the video above @hosejockey61 does use a washer; however, in a separate thread, he mentions not to use a washer with the oval nut.

b. how do I assess the damage done by the oval but to the pinion threads? I am OK to remove the nut, and then be safe to put a new oval nut onto the thread (obviously at the end of the process, not during the setup).

Some pinion nuts come with a separate washer and some have a built in flange to account for the washer. So, if you have a flange style nut, then no need for a washer. A regular nut needs one.

Check the threads to make sure they aren't galled. If they are good, then install a new pinon nut at final set up.


Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, we got extremely busy at work today.

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

No need for a setup outer bearing. They don't press on like a normal bearing, more like a really tight slip fit. To remove the pinion each time, I use a punch. Leave the nut on a couple of threads so the pinion doesn't fly out.



There is a slight chance the bearings could be off by 1-2 thou. The more I study the craft, the more I hear about people saying they see a difference on occasion. A new pinion nut should have sharp threads, that's not your problem.



Yes. But use your set up nut until you are sure your preload is correct at your desired final torque.



Some pinion nuts come with a separate washer and some have a built in flange to account for the washer. So, if you have a flange style nut, then no need for a washer. A regular nut needs one.

Check the threads to make sure they aren't galled. If they are good, then install a new pinon nut at final set up.


Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, we got extremely busy at work today.

Perfect, thanks a lot! Will proceed as suggested and report back.

And thanks again for all the educational / how-to content you post @hosejockey61 , I would have not started this project without your videos.

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Hello again,

So after re-measuring backlash, I had to adjust carrier shims a bit (backlash was too tight, but it only took 1 thou of adjustment), I am at 0.008 backlash, which is good.

The new pattern, however, is worse than the previous one...

I am still waiting for the shipment of the new seal and nut before adjusting the pinion preload, and I would appreciate any input regarding the pattern - should the pinion depth be adjusted in your opinion?

Also, if I need to adjust the pinion depth, do you have any advice on taking out the inner pinion race without destroying it and the shims? Or should I aim to have a new set installed after hammering it out from the other side?

Thanks all in advance!

Current pattern drive side (red line marks approx center of the tooth):

And coast side:

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

I would really appreciate your input if or when you have a moment @hosejockey61

 

[hosejockey61]

Don't worry about the center of the tooth from toe to heel. Focus on the pattern. It will land where it lands. Right now it is showing too shallow. I would add 2-3 thou and rerun.

 

[Blackjack]

Don't worry about the center of the tooth from toe to heel. Focus on the pattern. It will land where it lands. Right now it is showing too shallow. I would add 2-3 thou and rerun.

Yep you are for sure shallow. If you can find a shim to go under the pinion head would make things easier than driving out the race which usually boogers up the shims and baffle.

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Perfect, will do, thanks a lot @hosejockey61 & @Blackjack !

 

[UKTJ]

Watching this with interest @Mike_in_Riga as I am planning to take on my first regear as soon as I can source a HP Dana 30. I've also been watching Mike's Youtube channel avidly!

 

[Mike_in_Riga]

Watching this with interest @Mike_in_Riga as I am planning to take on my first regear as soon as I can source a HP Dana 30. I've also been watching Mike's Youtube channel avidly!

If it helps, here are my key lessons learned so far (granted I am still in the process). The overall experience was more or less smooth following Mike's videos. I went from thinking it was next to impossible, to pretty manageable step-by-step. Preparation (sourcing parts and tools) took a while - though will likely be much easier in the UK, I have ordered a few things from there.

Points below are only my personal lessons learned, I am not claiming any level of proficiency, please take it FWIW. Everything below is in addition to Mike's videos with great instructions that must be followed. (more experienced folks, please comment if any of the below is actually bad advice).

• Next time, before starting anything and giving the axle to any shop, I'd open the diff, and mark the caps (left and right). Words won't describe how much frustration this almost caused me, when I thought the caps were not stamped..
• Next time I would definitely use proper gear marking compound (I tried to get away with oil/vaseline and color pigment powder, and failed)
• Next time I would use the exact same brand of the setup bearing as the final bearing, not just the same bearing by part number (okay, this one was on me, I ordered kits from Revolution Gear, and they said all bearings were Timken, but the inner pinion one they sent was Koyo [also great bearings from what I have read]. At this point, I already had Timken set up race, and thought to go with it. Seems like this may have contributed to the problem described in this thread). I know, I know... but the tolerances should be been really tight across all manufacturers
• I also bought a case spreader from ebay.de (you will probably find one in the UK). I know Mike's doing everything without it, but after reading "you must use case spreader" in bold capital letters on the ARB locker install instructions my OCD kicked in. I actually don't regret it - it works pretty well, and less hassle with hammering the locker in and out during the setup.
• I did not have race driving tools, but combinations of various old races and bearings lying around the shop worked okay for me; 2-jaw bearing puller, however, was a "must" for me, as the yolk was sitting REALLY tight on the new pinion, even after cleaning and polishing the inner contact surface of the yolk. Could not take it off without the bearing puller + significant effort.
• I have ordered gears from RevolutionGear, and don't regret it in the slightest. As mentioned, I have zero experience with other gear manufacturers, or with any other regearing process; but from reading other people's experiences with different manufacturers, I am super happy I just went with Revoluion. Got gears shipped to my friend in the US who repackaged them, and sent them as personal items to the UK for a very reasonable price with Parcelhero without any customs hassle. I later collected everything from the UK and brought it home. Note - you will have to book the collection date in advance with them + call the actual carrier to confirm the collection booking. But the price is really good.
• I have welded a stand for the axle, and a tool to push in carrier seals (basically a threaded rod + 2 nuts + a few washers, mimicking this one). These helped a lot, and the latter is indispensable,

Maybe the following will help you too:

• I bought my Dana HP30 from these guys in the Netherlands for about $200 + another $200 delivery to Riga. They seem to be an aggregator of used car parts over there. My experience was really good, but I guess it will depend on the actual seller.
• As expected my axle arrived in a state of an old rusted part, I got it sandblasted (actually metal bead blasted), and then I got a shop to weld new braces (driver side and passenger side). They are definitely not the best ones you can get, but it was way too much hassle to get something good shipped to where I live. I then got it covered with a polyurethane coating for about $500 for two axles (I am doing Dana 44 rear simultaneously). Opinions on this one vary, but to me, it seems indestructible, I am happy, long-term reviews to follow.

If you end up buying any of the above from Amazon, please consider supporting this forum, by using the Forum's link.

Hope this helps!

 

[UKTJ]

If it helps, here are my key lessons learned so far (granted I am still in the process). The overall experience was more or less smooth following Mike's videos. I went from thinking it was next to impossible, to pretty manageable step-by-step. Preparation (sourcing parts and tools) took a while - though will likely be much easier in the UK, I have ordered a few things from there.

Points below are only my personal lessons learned, I am not claiming any level of proficiency, please take it FWIW. Everything below is in addition to Mike's videos with great instructions that must be followed. (more experienced folks, please comment if any of the below is actually bad advice).

• Next time, before starting anything and giving the axle to any shop, I'd open the diff, and make the caps (left and right). Words won't describe how much frustration this almost caused me, when I thought the caps were not stamped..
• Next time I would definitely use proper gear marking compound (I tried to get away with oil/vaseline and color pigment powder, and failed)
• Next time I would use the exact same brand of the setup bearing as the final bearing, not just the same bearing by part number (okay, this one was on me, I ordered kits from Revolution Gear, and they said all bearings were Timken, but the inner pinion one they sent was Koyo [also great bearings from what I have read]. At this point, I already had Timken set up race, and thought to go with it. Seems like this may have contributed to the problem described in this thread). I know, I know... but the tolerances should be been really tight across all manufacturers
• I also bought a case spreader from ebay.de (you will probably find one in the UK). I know Mike's doing everything without it, but after reading "you must use case spreader" in bold capital letters on the ARB locker install instructions my OCD kicked in. I actually don't regret it - it works pretty well, and less hassle with hammering the locker in and out during the setup.
• I did not have race driving tools, but combinations of various old races and bearings lying around the shop worked okay for me; 2-jaw bearing puller, however, was a "must" for me, as the yolk was sitting REALLY tight on the new pinion, even after cleaning and polishing the inner contact surface of the yolk. Could not take it off without the bearing puller + significant effort.
• I have ordered gears from RevolutionGear, and don't regret it in the slightest. As mentioned, I have zero experience with other gear manufacturers, or with any other regearing process; but from reading other people's experiences with different manufacturers, I am super happy I just went with Revoluion. Got gears shipped to my friend in the US who repackaged them, and sent them as personal items to the UK for a very reasonable price with Parcelhero without any customs hassle. I later collected everything from the UK and brought it home. Note - you will have to book the collection date in advance with them + call the actual carrier to confirm the collection booking. But the price is really good.
• I have welded a stand for the axle, and a tool to push in carrier seals (basically a threaded rod + 2 nuts + a few washers, mimicking this one). These helped a lot, and the latter is indispensable,

Maybe the following will help you too:

• I bought my Dana HP30 from these guys in the Netherlands for about $200 + another $200 delivery to Riga. They seem to be an aggregator of used car parts over there. My experience was really good, but I guess it will depend on the actual seller.
• As expected my axle arrived in a state of an old rusted part, I got it sandblasted (actually metal bead blasted), and then I got a shop to weld new braces (driver side and passenger side). They are definitely not the best ones you can get, but it was way too much hassle to get something good shipped to where I live. I then got it covered with a polyurethane coating for about $500 for two axles (I am doing Dana 44 rear simultaneously). Opinions on this one vary, but to me, it seems indestructible, I am happy, long-term reviews to follow.

If you end up buying any of the above from Amazon, please consider supporting this forum, by using the Forum's link.

Hope this helps!

That's fantastic, thank you for taking the time to post your experience.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

Wish I could find a HP30 that easily for that price over here!

Just curious, are you Latvian with awesome English, or a 'murican living abroad?