Sovereign Citizens, Arkansas State Police?

Westtown Willy

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I can't figure out which YouTube videos are funnier, the Sovereign Citizen dopes that instead of simply rolling down their window & taking a couple tickets they opt to get the tickets anyway plus a broken window, a face full of pepper spray or getting tased, a firm body slamming & cuffing, and a list of additional misdemeanors & sometimes felony charges instead, or, the idiots that try & outrun the Arkansas State Police which is never a good idea, that is one fearless crew & they do not fuck around one little bit. I must've watched 100 of their videos in the past week or two, they are the masters of the PIT maneuver even in excess of 100mph.


this is a nice spraying:



This video just happened to feature a Sovereign Citizen & the Arkansas State Police



pretty much all these videos end the same: 'get out of the car numbnuts'
 
The sovereign citizen stuff has always been fascinating to me. Their arguments of course are ridiculous but it's an interesting illustration on escalation and the use of force...ie what level of force is justified to get a signature on a ticket from somebody for doing 11 over the speed limit, not endangering anyone or in the process of victimizing anyone?
 
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The sovereign citizen stuff has always been fascinating to me. Their arguments of course are ridiculous but it's an interesting illustration on escalation and the use of force...ie what level of force is justified to get a signature on a ticket from somebody for doing 11 over the speed limit, not endangering anyone or in the process of victimizing anyone?

I don't think its situational for the cops like you portray. Its do what you're told by a peace officer or face the consequences. That is its own issue above and beyond the infraction
 
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I don't think its situational for the cops like you portray. Its do what you're told by a peace officer or face the consequences. That is its own issue above and beyond the infraction

Maybe not, but as it's own issue I think it's an interesting discussion.

We all know what would happen if cops hands were completely tied and no one had to obey them so I don't think the answer is there either, but to tase somebody, who could have a heart condition unbeknownst to the officer, over a traffic ticket implies that police as an institution value a human life at less than $200. An armed and/or threatening suspect, sure, but for a goofball wannabe constitutional YouTube lawyer that doesn't want to roll down his window I think the appropriate level of force is probably something farther less than lethal.

I was recently extorted by a nearby municipality when a dishonest officer ticketed me for a speed I might have been going, but lied about my location (and therefore the speed limit where he clocked me) and it opened my eyes to how broken our traffic enforcement system is. I was polite and cooperative and took my ticket but in spite of what they say and what our entire justice system is advertised to be, once you sign that ticket it's guilty until proven innocent, burden of proof is on you and not the prosecution, and it costs far more to defend than pay the fine. It's corrupt and I'm glad people are resisting it, I just wish they weren't all morons.
 
Maybe not, but as it's own issue I think it's an interesting discussion.

We all know what would happen if cops hands were completely tied and no one had to obey them so I don't think the answer is there either, but to tase somebody, who could have a heart condition unbeknownst to the officer, over a traffic ticket implies that police as an institution value a human life at less than $200. An armed and/or threatening suspect, sure, but for a goofball wannabe constitutional YouTube lawyer that doesn't want to roll down his window I think the appropriate level of force is probably something farther less than lethal.

I was recently extorted by a nearby municipality when a dishonest officer ticketed me for a speed I might have been going, but lied about my location (and therefore the speed limit where he clocked me) and it opened my eyes to how broken our traffic enforcement system is. I was polite and cooperative and took my ticket but in spite of what they say and what our entire justice system is advertised to be, once you sign that ticket it's guilty until proven innocent, burden of proof is on you and not the prosecution, and it costs far more to defend than pay the fine. It's corrupt and I'm glad people are resisting it, I just wish they weren't all morons.

I agree, but even if they are wrong and ask you to do something in an official capacity,you better do it calmly and with respect or be ready for the consequences. The time to seek justice is after the fact. Not during.
 
I agree, but even if they are wrong and ask you to do something in an official capacity,you better do it calmly and with respect or be ready for the consequences. The time to seek justice is after the fact. Not during.

I agree, but if justice was within most people's reach after the fact, it wouldn't be so tempting to seek it beforehand. It's lose-lose.
 
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The sovereign citizen stuff has always been fascinating to me. Their arguments of course are ridiculous but it's an interesting illustration on escalation and the use of force...ie what level of force is justified to get a signature on a ticket from somebody for doing 11 over the speed limit, not endangering anyone or in the process of victimizing anyone?

From what I've seen it's the misinformed citizen that's nearly always responsible for the escalation. Rather than simply complying with what always starts out to be extraordinarily simplistic and legal requests, i.e., what's your name, or, license & registration, or, roll your window down... these dopes refuse then start citing all variety of gibberish in support of their position that they are 'within their rights' to not comply. After sometimes dozens of repeated requests and warnings that the window will be broken, it is. Then in a not so unexpected twist, rather than smartening up they double down & not only don't get out of the car they continue to resist which results in a physical confrontation. Half the time they won't submit to the cuffs which then requires multiple officers to get them on, it's ridiculous. All of this is 100% avoidable, for them. If they're going to drive around & be roadside attorneys they oughta familiarize themselves with the actual law rather than whatever internet mumbo jumbo they're usually waiving around.

We all know what would happen if cops hands were completely tied and no one had to obey them so I don't think the answer is there either, but to tase somebody, who could have a heart condition unbeknownst to the officer, over a traffic ticket implies that police as an institution value a human life at less than $200. An armed and/or threatening suspect, sure, but for a goofball wannabe constitutional YouTube lawyer that doesn't want to roll down his window I think the appropriate level of force is probably something farther less than lethal.

It's precisely this attitude that contributes to the ever increasing disrespect for law enforcement. And no one is killing these retards, the level of force being utilized against them is perfectly appropriate. If you're driving around with a heart condition, you know that, & you have a cop telling you 20 times he's going to tase you, it's incumbent upon your stupid ass to make sure that doesn't happen. Besides, what's the alternative? I guess in a liberal utopia it goes something like this: Ok guys, he won't roll the window down, aww shucks I guess we have to let him go. Jesus Christ I can't think of a faster way to eliminate all remaining semblance of control and order. This is no different than decriminlizing theft, how's that working out for us? You let the population know that all they have to do is not comply & keep your window up & you'll be free to go after 20 minutes of begging by the police, we'll be fucked in short order.

I was recently extorted by a nearby municipality when a dishonest officer ticketed me for a speed I might have been going, but lied about my location (and therefore the speed limit where he clocked me) and it opened my eyes to how broken our traffic enforcement system is. I was polite and cooperative and took my ticket but in spite of what they say and what our entire justice system is advertised to be, once you sign that ticket it's guilty until proven innocent, burden of proof is on you and not the prosecution, and it costs far more to defend than pay the fine. It's corrupt and I'm glad people are resisting it, I just wish they weren't all morons.

Are there cops that do the wrong thing? Of course, just like there are people in whatever your profession is that do the wrong thing. It's the exception, it's not the rule. And signing tickets is irrelevant, one way or another if you get a ticket the time and place to litigate that ticket is in the courtroom, not on the side of the road, period. And you're wrong about the burden of proof, that is on the state unless you plead guilty. If you think you got a ticket in error, fight it, in the appropriate place.

'Resisting' on the side of the road is the quickest way to end up with a whole host of additional problems and they're all your fault for being a jackass. That's not even addressing the human element to it, and by that I mean this. I've represented countless people over the decades in all types of criminal & quasi-criminal & traffic cases. Do you want to venture a guess who gets the breaks & the tickets dismissed? It's not the mouthy jackass that the cops still remember wasting an extra hour on for a simple stop-sign violation.

It's all so simple, get pulled over, comply. Right, wrong or otherwise on the part of the cop, comply. You can only make a situation worse violating that simple rule.
 
And you're wrong about the burden of proof, that is on the state unless you plead guilty. If you think you got a ticket in error, fight it, in the appropriate place.
It's been a while since I got a ticket, and even longer since I fought one. The one I fought was my word against the cop, even though the cop lied. I was guilty. To fight the ticket, I had to pay the fine plus court costs almost equal to the fine. If I wanted to appeal, it would have cost me a lot more.
 
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From what I've seen it's the misinformed citizen that's nearly always responsible for the escalation. Rather than simply complying with what always starts out to be extraordinarily simplistic and legal requests, i.e., what's your name, or, license & registration, or, roll your window down... these dopes refuse then start citing all variety of gibberish in support of their position that they are 'within their rights' to not comply. After sometimes dozens of repeated requests and warnings that the window will be broken, it is. Then in a not so unexpected twist, rather than smartening up they double down & not only don't get out of the car they continue to resist which results in a physical confrontation. Half the time they won't submit to the cuffs which then requires multiple officers to get them on, it's ridiculous. All of this is 100% avoidable, for them. If they're going to drive around & be roadside attorneys they oughta familiarize themselves with the actual law rather than whatever internet mumbo jumbo they're usually waiving around.



It's precisely this attitude that contributes to the ever increasing disrespect for law enforcement. And no one is killing these retards, the level of force being utilized against them is perfectly appropriate. If you're driving around with a heart condition, you know that, & you have a cop telling you 20 times he's going to tase you, it's incumbent upon your stupid ass to make sure that doesn't happen. Besides, what's the alternative? I guess in a liberal utopia it goes something like this: Ok guys, he won't roll the window down, aww shucks I guess we have to let him go. Jesus Christ I can't think of a faster way to eliminate all remaining semblance of control and order. This is no different than decriminlizing theft, how's that working out for us? You let the population know that all they have to do is not comply & keep your window up & you'll be free to go after 20 minutes of begging by the police, we'll be fucked in short order.



Are there cops that do the wrong thing? Of course, just like there are people in whatever your profession is that do the wrong thing. It's the exception, it's not the rule. And signing tickets is irrelevant, one way or another if you get a ticket the time and place to litigate that ticket is in the courtroom, not on the side of the road, period. And you're wrong about the burden of proof, that is on the state unless you plead guilty. If you think you got a ticket in error, fight it, in the appropriate place.

'Resisting' on the side of the road is the quickest way to end up with a whole host of additional problems and they're all your fault for being a jackass. That's not even addressing the human element to it, and by that I mean this. I've represented countless people over the decades in all types of criminal & quasi-criminal & traffic cases. Do you want to venture a guess who gets the breaks & the tickets dismissed? It's not the mouthy jackass that the cops still remember wasting an extra hour on for a simple stop-sign violation.

It's all so simple, get pulled over, comply. Right, wrong or otherwise on the part of the cop, comply. You can only make a situation worse violating that simple rule.

I think my present saltiness about paying $400 for a bullshit ticket is crossing things in my mind and making it difficult to effectively articulate my thoughts, in turn making me come across a lot farther on the left of this issue than I am.

The fact that most traffic enforcement has zero to do with public safety and in many places is simply an extortion racket for revenue generation is one thing. This is not related to what respect or level of compliance is due an officer.

The fact that in recent years I'm encountering a lot more LE coming into a situation already being complete assholes when completely unjustified by the situation is another. I'm going to be polite and compliant regardless because in the more distant past that seemed to impact my likelihood of getting a warning or at least a lesser charge than I could have gotten. But if they come in to a 56 in a 45 traffic stop like I'm a perp against a wall with crack in my jacket pocket like the last few I've met, I'm sure as hell not going to give them any extra friendliness or speak a single word more than what is required to make the encounter as brief as possible. 10 years ago most of my interactions could have just as easily ended with meeting up later to grab a beer, but it seems those days are gone.
 
The people who think they can “lawyer” their way out of a ticket on the roadside are fools IMHO. Especially the sovereign citizen nonsense.

If YouTube is where you got your knowledge for those types of battles, you deserve whatever you get. Those videos are great for a laugh, but terrible for way to get out of a ticket.

I get that there are LEO’s that are dicks, so are lots of the people they have to deal with. And that could explain a lot about officers behavior in stops in general.
There’s good and bad in every group.

I’ve paid many a bullshit ticket, but I’ve skated on some fairly expensive tickets with just a warning too.

So I’ll skip the roadside nonsense, comply politely, and pay a lot more attention when I’m driving. I’ve had better luck avoiding tickets approaching it that way.
 
I think my present saltiness about paying $400 for a bullshit ticket is crossing things in my mind and making it difficult to effectively articulate my thoughts, in turn making me come across a lot farther on the left of this issue than I am.

The fact that most traffic enforcement has zero to do with public safety and in many places is simply an extortion racket for revenue generation is one thing. This is not related to what respect or level of compliance is due an officer.

The fact that in recent years I'm encountering a lot more LE coming into a situation already being complete assholes when completely unjustified by the situation is another. I'm going to be polite and compliant regardless because in the more distant past that seemed to impact my likelihood of getting a warning or at least a lesser charge than I could have gotten. But if they come in to a 56 in a 45 traffic stop like I'm a perp against a wall with crack in my jacket pocket like the last few I've met, I'm sure as hell not going to give them any extra friendliness or speak a single word more than what is required to make the encounter as brief as possible. 10 years ago most of my interactions could have just as easily ended with meeting up later to grab a beer, but it seems those days are gone.

my comments may have seemed targeted to you but were intended to be general statements with respect to liberal policies that have degraded law enforcement in this country. I'd venture to say the increase in agitation amongst law enforcement you're observing is directly proportional to the decrease in respect for them not only exhibited by the individuals they encounter every day but the governmental entities that employ them. They are dealing with an epidemic of professional accusers, victims & armchair lawyers that's worse than any time in history. Between defund, decriminilization, & other such brilliant leftist ideas like eliminating qualified immunity along with a never ending campaign painting them as the bad guy just by their existence (remember the 'ACAB' signs, All Cops Are Bad, that made about as much sense as Believe All Women), morale has never been lower. Veteran police officers are retiring and leaving en masse as a result & staffing shortages are common. These leftist hellhole cities are starting to wake up to the reality of what their policies have reaped, they're now forced to offer signing bonuses that are off the charts & they still can't recruit officers because they still refuse to recognize the underlying problem which is the hellish environment they've created for law enforcement.

And I'll add this, no one ever commits a traffic violation, or a crime, they're all innocent, all jails are packed with innocent victims, the cops are always lying assholes, the tickets are always bullshit, the reasons given for traffic stops are always manufactured, the searches are always illegal, whatever is found is never theirs, the warrants out on them are likewise always bullshit, & they are always the victim of a rogue cop that's simply out to get them to fill a quota. If I had a dollar...

I’ve paid many a bullshit ticket, but I’ve skated on some fairly expensive tickets with just a warning too.

I've had 3 tickets I can remember in my life, driving without a license when I was 16, & running a red light twice. I was guilty each time & I knew it, none were even close calls. I still contested 2 of them, the license one & one of the red light tickets, not to go to court & claim innocence but in hopes the cop wouldn't show up & it would be dismissed. It worked on the license case, and on the red light case if memory serves the cop was willing to reduce the charge to a non-point violation with a fine, a very common 'plea deal' given routinely by cops to people that are guilty but were not flaming assholes during the stop.

For whatever reason people's knee-jerk reaction to traffic tickets is that they're all bullshit, and some no doubt are, but the person getting the ticket is the least objective person on the planet to make that call.
 
Maybe not, but as it's own issue I think it's an interesting discussion.

We all know what would happen if cops hands were completely tied and no one had to obey them so I don't think the answer is there either, but to tase somebody, who could have a heart condition unbeknownst to the officer, over a traffic ticket implies that police as an institution value a human life at less than $200. An armed and/or threatening suspect, sure, but for a goofball wannabe constitutional YouTube lawyer that doesn't want to roll down his window I think the appropriate level of force is probably something farther less than lethal.

I was recently extorted by a nearby municipality when a dishonest officer ticketed me for a speed I might have been going, but lied about my location (and therefore the speed limit where he clocked me) and it opened my eyes to how broken our traffic enforcement system is. I was polite and cooperative and took my ticket but in spite of what they say and what our entire justice system is advertised to be, once you sign that ticket it's guilty until proven innocent, burden of proof is on you and not the prosecution, and it costs far more to defend than pay the fine. It's corrupt and I'm glad people are resisting it, I just wish they weren't all morons.
I wonder if you could of taken a picture of the ticket before you signed it and then showed the geolocation to the judge.
 
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I wonder if you could of taken a picture of the ticket before you signed it and then showed the geolocation to the judge.

I considered something like that, and even filmed some videos showing how he didn't have line of sight to me due to geography, once I entered the 25mph zone; and my state farm beacon flagged me for a hard braking event BEFORE I entered it, so there's no way I could have been going as fast as he claimed, where he claimed I was.

But the prosecutor offered to reduce the charge to 1-10 over, which is a zero point offense and maintains my squeaky clean official driving record and the discounted insurance rate I enjoy as a result. That was most important to me, and reduced the official charge to below what I could even prove, none of which were guaranteed if I paid an attorney much more than $400 to fight it. The condition being I still had to pay the original fine.
 
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my comments may have seemed targeted to you but were intended to be general statements with respect to liberal policies that have degraded law enforcement in this country. I'd venture to say the increase in agitation amongst law enforcement you're observing is directly proportional to the decrease in respect for them not only exhibited by the individuals they encounter every day but the governmental entities that employ them. They are dealing with an epidemic of professional accusers, victims & armchair lawyers that's worse than any time in history. Between defund, decriminilization, & other such brilliant leftist ideas like eliminating qualified immunity along with a never ending campaign painting them as the bad guy just by their existence (remember the 'ACAB' signs, All Cops Are Bad, that made about as much sense as Believe All Women), morale has never been lower. Veteran police officers are retiring and leaving en masse as a result & staffing shortages are common. These leftist hellhole cities are starting to wake up to the reality of what their policies have reaped, they're now forced to offer signing bonuses that are off the charts & they still can't recruit officers because they still refuse to recognize the underlying problem which is the hellish environment they've created for law enforcement.

And I'll add this, no one ever commits a traffic violation, or a crime, they're all innocent, all jails are packed with innocent victims, the cops are always lying assholes, the tickets are always bullshit, the reasons given for traffic stops are always manufactured, the searches are always illegal, whatever is found is never theirs, the warrants out on them are likewise always bullshit, & they are always the victim of a rogue cop that's simply out to get them to fill a quota. If I had a dollar...



I've had 3 tickets I can remember in my life, driving without a license when I was 16, & running a red light twice. I was guilty each time & I knew it, none were even close calls. I still contested 2 of them, the license one & one of the red light tickets, not to go to court & claim innocence but in hopes the cop wouldn't show up & it would be dismissed. It worked on the license case, and on the red light case if memory serves the cop was willing to reduce the charge to a non-point violation with a fine, a very common 'plea deal' given routinely by cops to people that are guilty but were not flaming assholes during the stop.

For whatever reason people's knee-jerk reaction to traffic tickets is that they're all bullshit, and some no doubt are, but the person getting the ticket is the least objective person on the planet to make that call.

All of the previous tickets I've ever had were completely deserved. I used to get pulled over fairly often...at least once a year. I virtually never got tickets, and if I did it was the minimum. Sometimes a written warning, sometimes just verbal. I credited my efforts at being friendly, keeping my hands visible, making it clear I wasn't a threat, letting him know when I was going for the glove compartment for my insurance verification, etc.

It's only been about the last 5-7 years, with no change to my behavior, that they've been coming into it already pissy and written the highest ticket they could. I've been lucky that they've all been zero point offenses to begin with, or it's been in small town speed traps that just collect the fine and don't report to the state, which is why my official record is clean.

I think collected traffic fines should be put toward specific causes that benefit the citizens instead of the city's general fund, to disincentivize it's use as a revenue collection tool. Maybe set it aside for paying out when the city/county/state loses a wrongful conviction suit.
 
@Westtown Willy Sorry my post ended up jacking your thread. The sovereign citizen people are morons. I haven't previously come across the AR state police but sounds like they don't mess around. Probably because it's Christmas but it reminds me of the portrayal of the Central Park Rangers in the movie Elf.

Hope all you guys are having a Merry Christmas.