I just want to see pics of each shock shaft at ride height and go from there.
A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
There's always more than one way to do things. There are rarely more ways than one to do them correctly.
OP
Measure three times and cut once is what I was told growing up.That's something that crossed my mind as well, I thought the outboard towers would be much higher. Let's hope this works out, because I REALLY don't want to have to do this all over again
I'll make note of that. I don't have a rear Antirock yet, but I'll have to order one since I knew this would be coming.
At the moment I'm mostly concerned about the up-travel. I wasn't paying attention while I was there, but now from looking at the photos, it looks like I'm missing a substantial amount of up-travel.
Not that it will matter for them but for others that may do similar with the same shock style, the hard bump of the shock is with that rubber bump stop removed. You have to account for the possibility of it being destroyed, cut, or somehow getting blown off the shaft. That means that hard bump is the point at which nothing can go higher without serious damage happening. Consider it the same as hard bump with the OEM jounce bumpers removed from the cups.
Unless you are outboarding shocks then you measure about 20 times, and cut about 5. We cut the notch in the frame about 1/8" small to start and then start fitting the shock and cycling the suspension. Due to the taper of the mount, you can remove small bits from the sides of the notch to slide it higher. It is hard to add that back to slide it lower. We also do that to fine tune the gaps to eliminate them.
Which brings up something I haven't seen yet, how did they do the weld across the top of the frame at the back of the mount?
There's multiple ways of doing things. Nothing a little JB Weld can't do.:meparto:
OP
Okay, so I went by the shop today and we had a long talk. I'm happy with the mid-arm install and the RubiCrawler install. I think they did a nice job, and after looking at the underside, it actually looks nicely done (in my opinion).
I am however not happy with the outboarding of the shocks. At ride height, about 1/3 of the shock shaft is showing, and my understanding is that it should be 1/2 of the shaft showing, is that correct?
We started talking about how this happened, and he said that he installed the outboard towers with the vehicle on the lift. Measurements were not taken while the vehicle was on the ground at ride height like it should have been.
I tried explaining this to him, but he said that all that really matters is the tire isn't crushing my fender at full bump, and that the driveshaft isn't bottoming out.
I explained to him that there's a lot more to it than that, but I really don't think he understood why I'm stuck in the mindset that I am.
I finally just told him flat out that while I don't know how to weld, I am 100% confident that with the advice of Blaine and others, I could do a much better outboard job myself, in my garage. I told him I wasn't satisfied with this portion of the work, and that I don't want to pay for something I'm unhappy with.
I mentioned having to buy new Poly Performance outboard towers ($400 for another set of 4), cut the old ones out, pay someone to weld the new ones in, etc.
He agreed to give me $1400 off the total cost of the project since I was unhappy with it, and I feel like this is fair.
My plan now is to take the Jeep home tomorrow (they'll be done with it then they said), and I will begin the process of cutting out the existing shock towers and putting in the new ones. I can't weld, but I know there are a ton of mobile welders online who will travel to you, and I'm confident I can find one that does really good work.
I really have no other option at this point. There's only a few people I know of that I could trust to do this and get it right, and those people are Blaine, Dave at Jeep West, @jjvw, @toximus, and @mrblaine. Of course Dave is the only one close to me, and having been through the ordeal I went through with him last month, I'm simply not going to let my Jeep sit in his parking lot for 6 months with the hope that "maybe" he'll get to it at some point.
If there's other shops around here that can do it, then I have no idea. It's not that these guys can't do it, it's that they really just don't seem to understand the concept of why we're measuring the outboard mounts at ride height, why we're cycling the suspension with the tires off, and why we aren't relying on a forklift as the only form of cycling the suspension.
Apparently it works for them, and they swear by it. However, it doesn't work for me knowing that the outboard mounts aren't setup properly and that at ride height, my shocks are only showing about 1/3 of the shaft.
I'm just going to have to resort to doing this myself since I really don't have any other option.
Live and learn I guess. Like I said, I'm happy with the majority of work, I'm just not happy that the outboard wasn't done to my liking.
Hopefully Blaine won't mind if I pick his brain while I do this outboard myself. I want to get the mounts in there properly so that when someone welds them up, there is no question about where they go.
I am however not happy with the outboarding of the shocks. At ride height, about 1/3 of the shock shaft is showing, and my understanding is that it should be 1/2 of the shaft showing, is that correct?
We started talking about how this happened, and he said that he installed the outboard towers with the vehicle on the lift. Measurements were not taken while the vehicle was on the ground at ride height like it should have been.
I tried explaining this to him, but he said that all that really matters is the tire isn't crushing my fender at full bump, and that the driveshaft isn't bottoming out.
I explained to him that there's a lot more to it than that, but I really don't think he understood why I'm stuck in the mindset that I am.
I finally just told him flat out that while I don't know how to weld, I am 100% confident that with the advice of Blaine and others, I could do a much better outboard job myself, in my garage. I told him I wasn't satisfied with this portion of the work, and that I don't want to pay for something I'm unhappy with.
I mentioned having to buy new Poly Performance outboard towers ($400 for another set of 4), cut the old ones out, pay someone to weld the new ones in, etc.
He agreed to give me $1400 off the total cost of the project since I was unhappy with it, and I feel like this is fair.
My plan now is to take the Jeep home tomorrow (they'll be done with it then they said), and I will begin the process of cutting out the existing shock towers and putting in the new ones. I can't weld, but I know there are a ton of mobile welders online who will travel to you, and I'm confident I can find one that does really good work.
I really have no other option at this point. There's only a few people I know of that I could trust to do this and get it right, and those people are Blaine, Dave at Jeep West, @jjvw, @toximus, and @mrblaine. Of course Dave is the only one close to me, and having been through the ordeal I went through with him last month, I'm simply not going to let my Jeep sit in his parking lot for 6 months with the hope that "maybe" he'll get to it at some point.
If there's other shops around here that can do it, then I have no idea. It's not that these guys can't do it, it's that they really just don't seem to understand the concept of why we're measuring the outboard mounts at ride height, why we're cycling the suspension with the tires off, and why we aren't relying on a forklift as the only form of cycling the suspension.
Apparently it works for them, and they swear by it. However, it doesn't work for me knowing that the outboard mounts aren't setup properly and that at ride height, my shocks are only showing about 1/3 of the shaft.
I'm just going to have to resort to doing this myself since I really don't have any other option.
Live and learn I guess. Like I said, I'm happy with the majority of work, I'm just not happy that the outboard wasn't done to my liking.
Hopefully Blaine won't mind if I pick his brain while I do this outboard myself. I want to get the mounts in there properly so that when someone welds them up, there is no question about where they go.
This doesn't make sense. Can you upload pictures showing what you're talking about?
Edit: What you said makes sense, but the numbers are so low that I truly hope neither of those numbers are correct.
At minimum buy your own small welder to tack brackets into place so you can cycle the suspension before having the professional out. Or else you'll be paying him for a few days of labor for him to sit in a chair while you figure out where you want things.
OP
No, no... I don't mean 1/3 of an inch is showing. I mean that 1/3 of the shock shaft is showing at ride height... my mistake. And it should be around 1/2 of the shock shaft showing, correct?
I'll swing back by and snap some photos. I should have done that earlier.
I agree. But I'm finding that more-and-more off-road shops around here seem to have no idea what "cycling the suspension" entails. They all tell me when I ask, "Oh yeah, we do that with a forklift.". It's not just these guys either, there's a number of people I talked to saying that's how they do it.
Really?
My neighbor has one that I'm sure he'll let me use. Hell, I might even be able to get him to at least tack the brackets into place for me.
My suggestion is: buy a welder and learn to weld. Start with small projects and keep trying new ones. Practice makes perfect. You seem like a smart guy and capable of learning. It may be difficult to become a great welder, but not really that hard to be an adequate one. Have a friendly experienced welder come by and watch over your first projects if that would help.
Doing so frees you up to have projects done just the way you want, and in a very short time the welding rig will pay for itself. It also frees you up to do creative projects that you might not otherwise have done. I did a modification to my Jeeperman rear bumper that I couldn't/wouldn't have done if I didn't have a welder sitting in my garage. (A write-up coming soon...)
I bought a Miller 211 because it will run on 110v or 220v, and is really easy for a beginner to set up for different material. I then went to Harbor Freight for a stand, table, and welding tools. I used it to weld up a sliding driveway gate that cost me $3k ~ $5k less than what I was quoted by professional firms, so it's more than paid for itself on that one job alone.
Just my $ .02
"Advice is free, and worth what you paid for it" - me
Doing so frees you up to have projects done just the way you want, and in a very short time the welding rig will pay for itself. It also frees you up to do creative projects that you might not otherwise have done. I did a modification to my Jeeperman rear bumper that I couldn't/wouldn't have done if I didn't have a welder sitting in my garage. (A write-up coming soon...)
I bought a Miller 211 because it will run on 110v or 220v, and is really easy for a beginner to set up for different material. I then went to Harbor Freight for a stand, table, and welding tools. I used it to weld up a sliding driveway gate that cost me $3k ~ $5k less than what I was quoted by professional firms, so it's more than paid for itself on that one job alone.
Just my $ .02
"Advice is free, and worth what you paid for it" - me
All it takes to tack a bracket into place is holding the button on the MIG gun for like 3 seconds. Just a small dot to hold it in place so it won't move while you cycle. If you can barrow a unit, great. You won't need more than a few dollars of wire and gas at most so a pack of his favorite drink should cover it. You'll need gloves and a welding helmet too.
I don't know what you have for tools, but I highly recommend my 12amp Metabo 4.5" grinder and Walter cut off wheels and their
2 floor jacks make the job SO much faster to cycle the suspension than just one.
All that, along with a mini-sledge should be enough for you to mock up the mounts.
OP
No doubt I probably should buy a welder and learn. I've been hesitant to do that because of the cost of a good welder, but maybe I should just bite the bullet.
I am confident that if I could weld, I could accomplish the majority of this stuff by myself, and it would give me a lot of creative freedom.
Gotcha. I don't need pictures. Actual measurements would be nice rather than relative numbers. 1/3rd of 12" is 4" which does keep you in the stock up-travel category. That is better than most.
How much have you spent having others do the work you could have done yourself?
I am confident that you can weld, you just need to do it. If I can learn, anybody can.
OP
I've got one floor jack and 2 jack stands. Sounds like I need to pay a trip to Harbor Freight and get another floor jack, since they don't cost that much. What height jacks do you recommend? I'm assuming the higher they go, the better.
I was going to ask about grinders and cut off wheels. The little Harbor Freight one I have won't cut it. I've tried cutting with it before, and it takes forever. I'll check out that setup you mentioned.
Already got the mini-sledge as well, so I'm mostly there.
I'll talk to my neighbor about his welder. If tacking the mounts on is that easy, then yeah, I shouldn't have any trouble doing that myself.
Seems like the perfect excuse to buy the right tools and learn to do it yourself.
I can't tell you how many times I've taken something apart and re-done it because it "wasn't quite right". If someone was paying me to work on their rig, it might have been "good enough". My wife doesn't know where I get the patience.