No start on 99 TJ 4.0 (not an ignition issue)

[JHammett]

Hi,

Been stuck with a no-start issue the last few days and can't figure it out. (Jeep started right up until I swapped out the clockspring).

It is not an ignition issue (switch or actuator pin which I read to be likely culprits) as I have taken the ignition switch off the steering column and when turning it over with a screwdriver still have the no start issue (even tried a replacement switch and did the same).

Everything works perfectly there is just nothing happening when I go to turn it over (starter will not enable, no crank etc.) Note that I have the 32rh transmission and the neutral/ park cable that goes into the right side of the ignition to keep it from being turned over when not in park or neutral did get disconnected when replacing the clockspring, but I seem to have that now properly connected/ working (at least such that it does not allow me to turn the key over when not in park/neutral)

I am pretty new to diagnosing these types of issues, so any help would be much appreciated.

 

[CharlesHS]

Hi,

Been stuck with a no-start issue the last few days and can't figure it out. (Jeep started right up until I swapped out the clockspring).

It is not an ignition issue (switch or actuator pin which I read to be likely culprits) as I have taken the ignition switch off the steering column and when turning it over with a screwdriver still have the no start issue (even tried a replacement switch and did the same).

Everything works perfectly there is just nothing happening when I go to turn it over (starter will not enable, no crank etc.) Note that I have the 32rh transmission and the neutral/ park cable that goes into the right side of the ignition to keep it from being turned over when not in park or neutral did get disconnected when replacing the clockspring, but I seem to have that now properly connected/ working (at least such that it does not allow me to turn the key over when not in park/neutral)

I am pretty new to diagnosing these types of issues, so any help would be much appreciated.

The way I read your explanation above; the vehicle worked perfectly until you swapped out the clock spring.
After reassembly when you turned the ignition everything (radio, cabin fan for A/C, dash lights, instrument gauges, ect) works, but when you turn the ignition to ON the starter will not crank the engine.
Then you found something wrong with your reassembling of the Neutral Safety Switch and now the engine cranks in Park and Neutral, but doesn't start.
Do you hear the fuel pump run for 2-3 seconds when the ignition switch is engaged ? IF not... do this test...
You can disconnect the air intake tube from the throttle body, spray some carb cleaner into the throttle body throat and crank the engine to see if it runs and sputters. IF it does, the problem is fuel pump or relay related.

 

[JHammett]

The way I read your explanation above; the vehicle worked perfectly until you swapped out the clock spring.
After reassembly when you turned the ignition everything (radio, cabin fan for A/C, dash lights, instrument gauges, ect) works, but when you turn the ignition to ON the starter will not crank the engine.
Then you found something wrong with your reassembling of the Neutral Safety Switch and now the engine cranks in Park and Neutral, but doesn't start.
Do you hear the fuel pump run for 2-3 seconds when the ignition switch is engaged ? IF not... do this test...
You can disconnect the air intake tube from the throttle body, spray some carb cleaner into the throttle body throat and crank the engine to see if it runs and sputters. IF it does, the problem is fuel pump or relay related.

Not fuel related (everything was recently cleaned out re-assembled when I had the TB and Intake Manifold off to replace a crack exhaust manifold, I also recently tested my fuel pressure since I am having intermittent stalling issues and decide to first change out the clockspring since it was bad (normal symptoms-no horn, Airbag light on). I saw that Jerry had mentioned before in a forum that the clockspring can cause some interference with the TBS. Once I get this new no-start issue fixed and can rule out the clockspring, I will continue that project by replacing the TBS and/ or Crankshaft position sensor.

Anyways, that is not related to this issue. The ignition seems to not be sending any signal to the starter to crank the engine. This all started after I replaced the clockspring.

I have not worked on these components before to be honest, so this all new to me. The engine will not crank regardless of in N or P. I first thought I may have an issue in the ignition (actuator pin or switch) and therefore replaced the switch and while doing so, turned the ignition switch over with a screwdriver and still had the same symptoms therefore confirming that issue is not an actuator pin or ignition switch.

The reason I mentioned the NSS linkage is that is the only thing I can think that could have caused this issue. Since everything went smoothly with the clockspring replacement other than the linkage disconnecting from the ignition.

Is there anything on the NSS that I can test/ verify to rule it out as the cause of this issue?

If not, maybe I blew a fuse or jarred a wire loose when replacing the clockspring?

 

[JHammett]

Not fuel related (everything was recently cleaned out re-assembled when I had the TB and Intake Manifold off to replace a crack exhaust manifold, I also recently tested my fuel pressure since I am having intermittent stalling issues and decide to first change out the clockspring since it was bad (normal symptoms-no horn, Airbag light on). I saw that Jerry had mentioned before in a forum that the clockspring can cause some interference with the TBS. Once I get this new no-start issue fixed and can rule out the clockspring, I will continue that project by replacing the TBS and/ or Crankshaft position sensor.

Anyways, that is not related to this issue. The ignition seems to not be sending any signal to the starter to crank the engine. This all started after I replaced the clockspring.

I have not worked on these components before to be honest, so this all new to me. The engine will not crank regardless of in N or P. I first thought I may have an issue in the ignition (actuator pin or switch) and therefore replaced the switch and while doing so, turned the ignition switch over with a screwdriver and still had the same symptoms therefore confirming that issue is not an actuator pin or ignition switch.

The reason I mentioned the NSS linkage is that is the only thing I can think that could have caused this issue. Since everything went smoothly with the clockspring replacement other than the linkage disconnecting from the ignition.

Is there anything on the NSS that I can test/ verify to rule it out as the cause of this issue?

If not, maybe I blew a fuse or jarred a wire loose when replacing the clockspring?

Also just to clarify any confusion all accessories work when i turn the ignition to ON and ACC but nothing happens (no crank) I attached a video to show this happening.

 

[CharlesHS]

You could do a different type of test...
IF you feel comfortable with procedure.....
Turn the ignition to ON, with a screw driver or jumper cable jumper the positive leads (copper studs) on the starter solenoid to see if the engine will crank over and start....

 

[JHammett]

You could do a different type of test...
IF you feel comfortable with procedure.....
Turn the ignition to ON, with a screw driver or jumper cable jumper the positive leads (copper studs) on the starter solenoid to see if the engine will crank over and start....

View attachment 268153

When I did this (sparks fly obviously) and the starter turns on and spins but does not crank the engine. i.e. I hear the starter motor spinning but not engaging the motor.

I was alone so the key was not turned over all the where the engine would normally turn over under normal conditions, but this should at least rule out the starter being broken, right?

 

[GaTechTJ]

You could do a different type of test...
IF you feel comfortable with procedure.....
Turn the ignition to ON, with a screw driver or jumper cable jumper the positive leads (copper studs) on the starter solenoid to see if the engine will crank over and start....

View attachment 268153

Good suggestion, but double check to make sure the jeep is in park or neutral when doing this test.

 

[JHammett]

Good suggestion, but double check to make sure the jeep is in park or neutral when doing this test.

Already did. Starter itself does not seem to be the issue.

 

[JHammett]

When I did this (sparks fly obviously) and the starter turns on and spins but does not crank the engine. i.e. I hear the starter motor spinning but not engaging the motor.

I was alone so the key was not turned over all the where the engine would normally turn over under normal conditions, but this should at least rule out the starter being broken, right?

It looks like I did this test incorrectly (wrong two poles on the starter solenoid) and therefore the starter did not push forward into the motor).

But after doing some more research and since I already have tried replacing the ignition switch out. Does this leave the NSS as the possible cause? If so, what do I do to fix this?

 

[CharlesHS]

When I did this (sparks fly obviously) and the starter turns on and spins but does not crank the engine. i.e. I hear the starter motor spinning but not engaging the motor.

I was alone so the key was not turned over all the where the engine would normally turn over under normal conditions, but this should at least rule out the starter being broken, right?

Yeah should have emphasized to perform this in neutral or park, but figured that to be common sense.
IF the starter spins, but does not crank (engage) the engine then there is either a problem with the starter bendix gear assembly or the gear is hitting a missing tooth in the flywheel.

The neutral safety switch would be the problem, but it may just be an adjustment in the installation.

 

[JHammett]

Yeah should have emphasized to perform this in neutral or park, but figured that to be common sense.
IF the starter spins, but does not crank (engage) the engine then there is either a problem with the starter bendix gear assembly or the gear is hitting a missing tooth in the flywheel.

The neutral safety switch would be the problem, but it may just be an adjustment in the installation.

I went back and retried the screwdriver jump and this time used the correct two studs (last time I did the two that will turn the starter engine but not push it forward into the motor) on the starter and the engine turned over.

How do I go about ensuring the NSS is properly adjusted?

I already checked that the tail lights light up when in R, and they do and I adjusted the cable (the NSS linkage) going from the ignition into a cylinder on the cable under the dash such that it does not allow the key to turn when not in P or N nor to move the shifter our of park without the key in the ignition. Is there anything else that can be adjusted here?

 

[CharlesHS]

I went back and retried the screwdriver jump and this time used the correct two studs (last time I did the two that will turn the starter engine but not push it forward into the motor) on the starter and the engine turned over.

How do I go about ensuring the NSS is properly adjusted?

I already checked that the tail lights light up when in R, and they do and I adjusted the cable (the NSS linkage) going from the ignition into a cylinder on the cable under the dash such that it does not allow the key to turn when not in P or N nor to move the shifter our of park without the key in the ignition. Is there anything else that can be adjusted here?

Depending upon your year TJ you can download a PDF from the TJ Resources of your FSM which will instruct you how.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...ice-manuals-fsm-technical-documentation.4618/

 

[JHammett]

Depending upon your year TJ you can download a PDF from the TJ Resources of your FSM which will instruct you how.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads...ice-manuals-fsm-technical-documentation.4618/

I was looking there as well and from everything I can understand the NSS is properly adjusted at least at the adjustment point under the dash where there is a clip that can be removed and then the cable can be shortened/lengthened.

 

[CharlesHS]

Then check to see IF when you turn the ignition switch to the crank position there is voltage to the solenoid terminal for engaging the starter solenoid.
You should also inspect the harness connections at the ignition switch.

 

[JHammett]

Then check to see IF when you turn the ignition switch to the crank position there is voltage to the solenoid terminal for engaging the starter solenoid.
You should also inspect the harness connections at the ignition switch.

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this. Had to wait until my wife was home to turn the key over. Anyways, I have 12v at the terminal that is always hot and nothing on the other two when my wife turns the key over. So, no power to the starter solenoid. As I had mentioned in the previous posts, I have already swapped out two different new ignition starter switches.

Any other ideas on why I am not getting any power to the starter solenoid from the ignition? (I also last night checked all connections with clips under the dash just in case something came loose.)

 

[JHammett]

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this. Had to wait until my wife was home to turn the key over. Anyways, I have 12v at the terminal that is always hot and nothing on the other two when my wife turns the key over. So, no power to the starter solenoid. As I had mentioned in the previous posts, I have already swapped out two different new ignition starter switches.

Any other ideas on why I am not getting any power to the starter solenoid from the ignition? (I also last night checked all connections with clips under the dash just in case something came loose.)

I also this morning was investigating the starter relay in the PDC and I always have 12v at terminal 30, but am not getting anything at 86 or 87 when turning the key over. I can, however, start the engine up right away by jumping terminal 30 to 87.

I think this further confirms the ignition to starter issue. Just not sure of what to do from here.

 

[Mall'er]

Pin 85 on the starter relay socket, is it grounded when the shifter is in park or neutral? That will let you know if the nss is functioning as expected.

Pin 30 is the power feed, it should always have power. When pin 85 is grounded, you should get voltage on pin 87.

How does fuse 20 look?

 

[CharlesHS]

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this. Had to wait until my wife was home to turn the key over. Anyways, I have 12v at the terminal that is always hot and nothing on the other two when my wife turns the key over. So, no power to the starter solenoid. As I had mentioned in the previous posts, I have already swapped out two different new ignition starter switches.

Any other ideas on why I am not getting any power to the starter solenoid from the ignition? (I also last night checked all connections with clips under the dash just in case something came loose.)

Check the 14 ga yellow wire on terminal 10 of the Ignition switch to ensure 12V is present when the switch is in the START position.
IF there is.... voltage then you need to check the 20A fuse #20 and verify voltage on 14 ga yellow/red wire going to the starter relay in the PDC.

 

[JHammett]

Pin 85 on the starter relay socket, is it grounded when the shifter is in park or neutral? That will let you know if the nss is functioning as expected.

Pin 30 is the power feed, it should always have power. When pin 85 is grounded, you should get voltage on pin 87.

How does fuse 20 look?

I am not getting any power to fuse 20. I checked that this morning. I tested the ground on the OHM setting of my multimeter on pin 85 and from what I can tell it is grounded as I am not getting any movement (I have an older analog multimeter.) However, I am not getting any voltage on pin 87.

 

[JHammett]

Check the 14 ga yellow wire on terminal 10 of the Ignition switch to ensure 12V is present when the switch is in the START position.
IF there is.... voltage then you need to check the 20A fuse #20 and verify voltage on 14 ga yellow/red wire going to the starter relay in the PDC.

I see the yellow wire coming off of the ignition switch and then going through a 10 pin connector. Stupid question, how do I test this wire with a multimeter for 12v? I am not getting any reading when on the wire itself (I would assume due to the insulating rubber.)

Sorry, my forte is by no means electrical! Probably, will know my way around it after this project though!