Anti 4x4

[Steve Wasteney]

How strong is the anti 4x4 feeling as a result of Climate change .
Over here they hate us until times of difficulty like floods and heavy snow.At these times we become the hero's of the hour then when the floods subside and the snow melts, its back to being hated.
We cannot win. If you live in town you are slated for owning a gas guzzling 4x4 for no reason. If you live in the countryside you are accused of tearing up the lanes. We have a very powerful organisation called the Ramblers association. They have made it their mission to see 4x4's banned from every unsurfaced track in the country and left only for walkers, horse riders and cyclists.
I envy you your open spaces. Don't allow the environmentalists to take them away from you.

 

[Chris]

The anti off-roading thing is pretty big over here. The government has closed many of the places where we are able to go off-roading at so the places are fewer and further in between. I know that some of the guys know more about this than I do (i.e. @StG58 and others).

But yes, it's not just on your side of the pond.

The Ramblers association? Sounds like a bunch of wankers to me...

 

[reblhoss]

We are lucky and have a guy who owns a huge chunk of land out here in SC and has claimed it as "Battery park off road". He's got miles and miles of trails strictly for jeeps and dirt bikes. He's even started renting out dirt bikes and equipment. It's a pretty cool set up and worth the two hour drive to avoid a ticket and get all muddy.

 

[Steve Wasteney]

The anti off-roading thing is pretty big over here. The government has closed many of the places where we are able to go off-roading at so the places are fewer and further in between. I know that some of the guys know more about this than I do (i.e. @StG58 and others).

But yes, it's not just on your side of the pond.

The Ramblers association? Sounds like a bunch of wankers to me...

There are over 100,000 miles of footpath and bridleways in the UK. But not content with this, they want the remaining 4,000 miles of byways open to us

 

[billiebob]

We do it to ourselves. Selfish is as selfish does.

But 4WD when used responsibly lets you tread very lightly. Trust me if we don't accept the responsibility to rein in the red neck retards who DO rip up our pristine back country.... the "greenies"... which include me.... will win. And rightly so.

 

[Steve Wasteney]

We do it to ourselves. Selfish is as selfish does.

But 4WD when used responsibly lets you tread very lightly. Trust me if we don't accept the responsibility to rein in the red neck retards who DO rip up our pristine back country.... the "greenies"... which include me.... will win. And rightly so.

You are right, we have our irresponsible element too. Following record rainfall for the whole of December the lanes are in a very vulnerable state with very soft surfaces and lots of mud. The mud is the problem, it attracts the mud pluggers who have no regard for the responsible users trying to show restraint and respect for these tracks. We have unsurfaced roads that date back thousands of years. The numbnuts element WILL force their closure for good. I am not a " greenie" but I am not a moron either.

 

[StG58]

Not a greenie in the modern sense, by any means. BUT I don't like wonton waste and random destruction either. We owe to ourselves and others to leave as little trace as possible of our passage. The enviro-nazis are doing everything within their power to limit everyone to urban centers. Not gonna happen, but they keep at it.

 

[billiebob]

When we confront and fight enviro-nazis with their concerns, we lose. When we stand as environmentally concerned back country users and agree the enviro-nazis are raising justified concerns with the red neck retards wrecking the environment and threatening our access to that environment we stand a chance to increase our access.

Otherwise... it is gonna happen... actually, it IS happening.

 

[StG58]

Some, if not a majority of their concerns are valid at some level. No argument there. They are winning the access battle because of two, or possibly three reasons. 1) They have been getting in the faces of the mid level bureaucrat policy makers often enough and loudly enough that the rules are being made just to get them to go away. 2) They are becoming the mid level policy makers.

These folks are really starting to annoy me.

 

[Steve Wasteney]

Our government operate double standards. Some of the most sustainable routes in the UK are across granite bedrock and are environments that are rugged and hostile. These routes have been closed to protect them. However these same areas have been given the ok for Fracking. Not allowed to drive on top but allowed to destroy below. Money doesn't talk over here, it shouts loudly in your face.

 

[Zhillslady]

Couple cities around me actually have property set aside for 4x4's. In fact the local sheriff in polk county is having a jeep mudding event in February.

 

[mrblaine]

When we confront and fight enviro-nazis with their concerns, we lose. When we stand as environmentally concerned back country users and agree the enviro-nazis are raising justified concerns with the red neck retards wrecking the environment and threatening our access to that environment we stand a chance to increase our access.

Otherwise... it is gonna happen... actually, it IS happening.

The bigger picture is very similar to our .gov in that they continue to make laws and legislate because that is what they do. If they aren't doing that, then they don't have a job so they keep making more laws. The first rule should be that no new law can be passed until one is repealed and removed from the books. We have enough, we don't need more.

That also happens to the folks like the Sierra Club. There was a time when they were effective, needed, and they did good work in protecting the things that were in need of protection. Where they failed is they ran out of good work and started looking for busy work to keep themselves important and to justify their existence and once that happened, common sense was replaced by zeal to an almost criminal level at times.

Once the whales were saved and there were no more great areas to turn into National Parks, something needed to be done so they turned to trying to convert stuff back into wilderness only accessible on foot. Once that became their modus operandi, they far overstepped their bounds and they can all rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. For something to be successful for all parties concerned, there needs to be balance and they have none.

 

[mrblaine]

Our government operate double standards. Some of the most sustainable routes in the UK are across granite bedrock and are environments that are rugged and hostile. These routes have been closed to protect them. However these same areas have been given the ok for Fracking. Not allowed to drive on top but allowed to destroy below. Money doesn't talk over here, it shouts loudly in your face.

What do you know of fracking other than what the media has fed you?

 

[StG58]

The bigger picture is very similar to our .gov in that they continue to make laws and legislate because that is what they do. If they aren't doing that, then they don't have a job so they keep making more laws. The first rule should be that no new law can be passed until one is repealed and removed from the books. We have enough, we don't need more.

That also happens to the folks like the Sierra Club. There was a time when they were effective, needed, and they did good work in protecting the things that were in need of protection. Where they failed is they ran out of good work and started looking for busy work to keep themselves important and to justify their existence and once that happened, common sense was replaced by zeal to an almost criminal level at times.

Once the whales were saved and there were no more great areas to turn into National Parks, something needed to be done so they turned to trying to convert stuff back into wilderness only accessible on foot. Once that became their modus operandi, they far overstepped their bounds and they can all rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. For something to be successful for all parties concerned, there needs to be balance and they have none.

And there you have it in a nutshell. I forgot who said it, but I have always liked the quote "Nothing is safe when the legislature is in session."

 

[billiebob]

What do you know of fracking other than what the media has fed you?

Well I grew up with fracking in Alberta and the media barely scratches the surface with the water table problems fracking causes. Anyone who thinks fracking is a good idea has their head in the sand.

 

[mrblaine]

Well I grew up with fracking in Alberta and the media barely scratches the surface with the water table problems fracking causes. Anyone who thinks fracking is a good idea has their head in the sand.

I spent many years working in the oilfields in west Texas and eastern New Mexico in everything from drilling rigs to production wireline service.

How deep is the deepest aquifer that we normally use for potable water?
Why do oil companies despise water in their wells?
What exactly is fracking?
When does an oil company do that process?
Why do they do it?

 

[billiebob]

The bigger picture is very similar to our .gov in that they continue to make laws and legislate because that is what they do

That also happens to the folks like the Sierra Club. Once the whales were saved and there were no more great areas to turn into National Parks, something needed to be done so they turned to trying to convert stuff back into wilderness only accessible on foot. For something to be successful for all parties concerned, there needs to be balance and they have none.

Applies to the motorized community too. We tend to just rip right into the environment in complete oblivion.

I grew up climbing mountains and skiing the back country. I still love the peace and solitude of travelling by foot. Very few guys with Jeeps, Quads or Skidoos ever even try hiking... tell me where their balance is?

And rant all you want about "Government" closing roads but a lot of the gates are put up on private resource roads because the corporations are tired of 4wheelers destroying their roads by ripping up the hills beside the road. Leaving garbage behind. Failing to put out our campfires. As long as you keep ranting instead of trying to improve our own behaviour we will keep losing access.

 

[StG58]

Applies to the motorized community too. We tend to just rip right into the environment in complete oblivion.

I grew up climbing mountains and skiing the back country. I still love the peace and solitude of travelling by foot. Very few guys with Jeeps, Quads or Skidoos ever even try hiking... tell me where their balance is?

And rant all you want about "Government" closing roads but a lot of the gates are put up on private resource roads because the corporations are tired of 4wheelers destroying their roads by ripping up the hills beside the road. Leaving garbage behind. Failing to put out our campfires. As long as you keep ranting instead of trying to improve our own behaviour we will keep losing access.

We have very similar backgrounds, @billiebob, I grew up hiking the PCT and the Olympics, along with a couple of dozen other trail systems here in the local area. Did a bunch of cross country skiing in the Cascades. You see the hikers cutting switchbacks and leaving trash as well as other destructive behaviors. It's not just the wheelers that are guilty of that. I got too stove up for that sort of outdoor activity awhile ago though, unfortunately.

So, what's a solution? I have no problem with the private guys putting up gates and locking us out. It's their land after all. It's disappointing for sure, and I hate to see it happen, but the private land owners are trying to protect their investment. The small percentage of knuckleheads are costing us big time.

There aren't enough Rangers out there to find and cite the folks. I'm not sure I want to have that many rangers wandering around anyway. Don't want to pay for it, and don't want them looking over my shoulder. That leaves us with a problem. What to do about the few that are causing most, if not all, of the destruction? I've reported these folks to the local Sherriff's office, and they don't have the resources to do much. The Forest Rangers are critically understaffed for that work, and can't keep up with the poachers, let alone the random 4x4 knuckleheads.

I've personally gotten in a few faces when they were being especially destructive, but that never turns out well. A couple of the times I did that, I was very glad that I was packing a pistol on my hip. It escalates from stupid to dangerous very quickly.

If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears and you have my undivided attention. How do we stop the knuckleheads without putting further restrictions on the rest of us?

 

[billiebob]

Gated private roads... actually the land is crown land. The roads are built by resource companies to access the timber, oil, minerals. Then they gate or decommission the roads by pulling bridges and digging ditches across the road. Why? Because they are responsible for maintaining the road otherwise and they prefer to just close them. Here in the Kootenays of BC almost every road was built by resource companies. Only a few are government forestry roads. So when corporations decide to decommission roads they are closing us right out of the back country. Lets quit giving them reasons to close the roads.

"You see the hikers cutting switchbacks and leaving trash as well as other destructive behaviors. It's not just the wheelers that are guilty of that."
How does this comment help us keep access... sounds like if they can do it, why not me? Wrong forum to comment on squatters and hikers who litter the back country. On this forum, I care about us wheelers learning to tread lightly and respect the environment.

How?
Peer pressure, responsible moderators, get in the face of the guys posting stupidity on this... and every other wheeler forum. They think they are cool... prove they aren't.

 

[StG58]

It doesn't. I was pointing out that hikers (and other back country users) have the same issues that we do. Will some of their strategies translate to us? We are on the same page here @billiebob, really. Up in BC, it's Crown land. Down here it's Federal land. Pretty much Same-o Same-o. The resource companies here do the exact same thing except that only the privately held lands are gated. The roads on public land are ditched and bermed.

I agree with you on applying peer pressure, and getting in the faces of the stupid and reckless. On this forum, education is going to go a very long ways and we can discuss some pretty subtle topics around treading lightly. The denizens seem to be of that caliber anyway. That still doesn't help much with the truly destructive amongst us. One of those guys will do more damage in a weekend than any one of us will do in years. That's the problem that I'm trying to find a solution to.