Building for conditions

[UKTJ]

I have been continuing to read past threads on this wonderful forum as I start to think about what modifications I need to plan for my TJ. One thing I picked up on was building for the conditions you will encounter. Now in the UK I am unlikely to need to do this...

But I may well end up somewhere like this...

The question I therefore have is, given my jeep is likely to see an awful lot more mud than desert rock, what differences will that mean for my build?

Thank in advance for any thoughts!

 

[someguysjeep]

then your 1st purchase should be a power washer.
what size wheels do you run or plan to run?
what mods have been done already, anything? wanting to lift it?

TJ's will hold mud, in the front fenders, in the belly pan and in the frame. if your gonna run in the mud it's gonna come down to what tires you choose. keeping the chassis wet with fluid film could help lessen whats able to hold on.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

I have been continuing to read past threads on this wonderful forum as I start to think about what modifications I need to plan for my TJ. One thing I picked up on was building for the conditions you will encounter. Now in the UK I am unlikely to need to do this...
View attachment 215275

But I may well end up somewhere like this...
View attachment 215276

The question I therefore have is, given my jeep is likely to see an awful lot more mud than desert rock, what differences will that mean for my build?

Thank in advance for any thoughts!

Keep your tires under the fenders if you can (4” rubicon flares or extended aftermarket). Extend your breather hoses for both differentials as high as you can get there out of harms way (transmission has a breather as well). Keep the stock intake to prevent water and mud intrusion. Don’t use a LSD differential when in the deep mud, lock it up so you don’t destroy it. Locker front and rear. Wheel speed matters so transfer case ratio of the 231 works better than 241. Higher suspension lifts and body lifts keep you up out of the bad stuff. Skinner tires if you want to cut down through mud to solid material, wide tires if you’re trying to float on top. Horsepower upgrades are a huge improvement (turbo or super or engine swap). Consider a regear that gives you the most low end power. Run super swampers and don’t look back

 

[gasiorv]

Best advice would come from locals who actually wheel the area that you will be wheelin.
But you asked for our thoughts so here it is: As an adult I hate mud, but as a kid that is all we tended to do, as a kid when someone said we were going 4 wheeling it meant mud holes and hill climbs and the general consensus was tires and horesepower meant all the difference. Tires needed to be tall enough to keep your diff from digging in and have big nobbies or paddles that would dig and clean. You then needed horsepower to get them spinning. We also did big lifts to get clearance for the tires, but I don't really remember any of us debating how the lift was accomplished, we were too young, had no money, and were just having fun.

Now as an adult when some says lets go jeeping, it is generally low speed crawing through rocks. Lifted to get clearance for tires, which need to be big enough to give axle clearance, break over angle, etc..tire grip is also more critical. A lot of low end torque over horsepower.

 

[TheBoogieman]

Keep in mind that really expensive lifts won't last any longer than cheaper ones in mud. I used to spend $20 at the carwash immediately after every mud trip.
p.s. Buy a QUALITY winch or have friends that have them, wheel with you. Wear tall rubber boots.

.

 

[Goatman]

How much of the time do you actually plan to spend in the mud? Actively seeking it, or only when the river floods its bank?
Mud tires are definitely best for mud, but are also worst for pavement. So take an honest look at what your plans are. For the first several months first go through all the fluids and flush them and refill. Be sure all systems are in good working order, and then just drive your Jeep to get used to how it works, and what you need to improve. Get with a local offroad club and ask to come along on a few trips. Listen to what they recommend and why. Try and get the whole family involved. This will make your (soon to be) addiction easier for all of you.
But most importantly HAVE FUN! That's the whole purpose of owning a TJ.

 

[UKTJ]

then your 1st purchase should be a power washer.
what size wheels do you run or plan to run?
what mods have been done already, anything? wanting to lift it?

TJ's will hold mud, in the front fenders, in the belly pan and in the frame. if your gonna run in the mud it's gonna come down to what tires you choose. keeping the chassis wet with fluid film could help lessen whats able to hold on.

Thanks for your reply. At the moment the TJ is exactly as I bought it bar some different tyres.

Part of the reason for asking this question is to try and bottom out what modifications I need to plan and budget for. I will without doubt look to get the jeep lifted. I have yet to work out just how much more a bigger lift to accomodate 35" tyres might be compared to less lift and 33" tyres. I have aleady worked out that getting 35" tyres on will be a lot more done properly, but haven't dared add it up precisely yet

 

[UKTJ]

Keep your tires under the fenders if you can (4” rubicon flares or extended aftermarket). Extend your breather hoses for both differentials as high as you can get there out of harms way (transmission has a breather as well). Keep the stock intake to prevent water and mud intrusion. Don’t use a LSD differential when in the deep mud, lock it up so you don’t destroy it. Locker front and rear. Wheel speed matters so transfer case ratio of the 231 works better than 241. Higher suspension lifts and body lifts keep you up out of the bad stuff. Skinner tires if you want to cut down through mud to solid material, wide tires if you’re trying to float on top. Horsepower upgrades are a huge improvement (turbo or super or engine swap). Consider a regear that gives you the most low end power. Run super swampers and don’t look back

Thanks for the helpful tips. Though I am afraid as I have little knowledge of mechanical stuff I am struggling with some of the terminology, but hey that is where the internet is your friend, so I will spend some time getting myself up to speed so I can fully appreciate all your input.

 

[UKTJ]

Best advice would come from locals who actually wheel the area that you will be wheelin.
But you asked for our thoughts so here it is: As an adult I hate mud, but as a kid that is all we tended to do, as a kid when someone said we were going 4 wheeling it meant mud holes and hill climbs and the general consensus was tires and horesepower meant all the difference. Tires needed to be tall enough to keep your diff from digging in and have big nobbies or paddles that would dig and clean. You then needed horsepower to get them spinning. We also did big lifts to get clearance for the tires, but I don't really remember any of us debating how the lift was accomplished, we were too young, had no money, and were just having fun.

Now as an adult when some says lets go jeeping, it is generally low speed crawing through rocks. Lifted to get clearance for tires, which need to be big enough to give axle clearance, break over angle, etc..tire grip is also more critical. A lot of low end torque over horsepower.

Thanks for taking the time to provide some help.

Now you have to remember the UK is a teeny, tiny place compared to the US, so in your terms almost the entire country counts as local . But your point is well made and I do plan to join at least one club. Sadly at the moment we are pretty much in Covid lock down and I expect that to last for a fair few weeks more. Great for giving me time to search the internet, rubbish for getting out and meeting people.

When you live in the UK mud is not optional, it just happens. Similarly rock crawling is not really an option. There are some rocky places, but not sunny with big red smooth boulders, rather winswept, very wet with jagged granite. From what I understand so far, the way it tends to work here is people have two options for driving off road. First, using green lanes, basically public rights of way that are not maintained. Generally in the more scenic parts of the country but not the most challenging of driving. Second, dedicate offroad sites used either by clubs or run on a 'pay and play' basis. These will often provide the more challenging driving and if it has been really wet then that will mean a lot of mud.

Getting up above the mud makes sense to me. So does having more horse power to keeping the wheels spinning when they are deep in that mud. Do you have a view on whether the stresses on the components are different for ploughing through mud, versus crawing over rocks? Or indeed is it different components that get tested the most?

 

[UKTJ]

Keep in mind that really expensive lifts won't last any longer than cheaper ones in mud. I used to spend $20 at the carwash immediately after every mud trip.
p.s. Buy a QUALITY winch or have friends that have them, wheel with you. Wear tall rubber boots.

.View attachment 215277

Thank you so much for the input. I also love the picture, but for the life of me I cannot work out how that women can be so clean in amongst everything else going on there!

That is a really interesting point regarding the longevity of modifications. What is the issue, does the mud just get into the components and wreck them however much you clean the TJ down after a trip? Yes winches are way up on my lift, looking at some UK builds posted on local websites I see a lot of people have a winch front and rear.

 

[KingCarGuyZ]

with mud there are 2 schools of thought float across the top, or bog through it. I had a vw sand rail for a while that would keep up with Texas Bog trucks, she just skimmed across the top really fast and never sunk in (car weighed less than 1,000lbs with me In it) that being said, TJ’s arn’t that light. So you will probably need to bog.


Tires are your friend, aggressive tread and tall, (skinny or not depends on if you want to cut through the mud to something solid ish, or float on top)

consider lunchbox lockers over selectable, there tougher. Breathers for anything that breaths, you might consider a windstar style cowl snorkel, or other snorkel. Stay away from K&N style cold air intakes.

You want as little weight as possible, so where we might want armor, you may not (consider that mud can hide sharp things) loose the factory skid plate, go tummy tuck if you can. The factory skid acts like a shovel or anchor in mud.

a very good waterproof winch and lots of recovery points,

when you go for lift, don’t be concerned with uptravle or flex, you just want as high in the air as possible.

HP is your friend, boost it, engine swap. Something to get the wheel speed up

spend money/time waterproofing electrics. They will be your worst problem, also ditch the carpet and get something easy to clean out.

And for godsakes wash your Jeep as soon as you can after getting out of the mud, spend time on the underside, this could take you a full day tj get back cleanish. And keep up to date on touch up paint (to fight rust) and fluid service (especially diff’s. This would be a time to recommend the “harsh duty” interval)

 

[UKTJ]

How much of the time do you actually plan to spend in the mud? Actively seeking it, or only when the river floods its bank?
Mud tires are definitely best for mud, but are also worst for pavement. So take an honest look at what your plans are. For the first several months first go through all the fluids and flush them and refill. Be sure all systems are in good working order, and then just drive your Jeep to get used to how it works, and what you need to improve. Get with a local offroad club and ask to come along on a few trips. Listen to what they recommend and why. Try and get the whole family involved. This will make your (soon to be) addiction easier for all of you.
But most importantly HAVE FUN! That's the whole purpose of owning a TJ.

I wouldn't say I am actually going to be seeking out the deepest mud I can find, more that a lifetime of living here tells me I am going to find it a fair bit of it if I plan on going off road.

I am fortunate in that the TJ is an occassional drive only, I have pick-up for daily driving and my wife has a 'never seen anything but tarmac' Grand Cherokee. That means I can balance things more towards off road that I might otherwise do. But realistically I also know that I will end up driving a few hours to get to some of the places I will want to go off road, so motorway diving is goi g to happen. My best guess is probably driving moderate offroad tracks 40%, driving more challenging dedicated offroad sites 40%, driving on the road in the summer because the jeep looks cool 20% (sad I know, but I might as well be honest).

 

[UKTJ]

with mud there are 2 schools of thought float across the top, or bog through it. I had a vw sand rail for a while that would keep up with Texas Bog trucks, she just skimmed across the top really fast and never sunk in (car weighed less than 1,000lbs with me In it) that being said, TJ’s arn’t that light. So you will probably need to bog.


Tires are your friend, aggressive tread and tall, (skinny or not depends on if you want to cut through the mud to something solid ish, or float on top)

consider lunchbox lockers over selectable, there tougher. Breathers for anything that breaths, you might consider a windstar style cowl snorkel, or other snorkel. Stay away from K&N style cold air intakes.

You want as little weight as possible, so where we might want armor, you may not (consider that mud can hide sharp things) loose the factory skid plate, go tummy tuck if you can. The factory skid acts like a shovel or anchor in mud.

a very good waterproof winch and lots of recovery points,

when you go for lift, don’t be concerned with uptravle or flex, you just want as high in the air as possible.

HP is your friend, boost it, engine swap. Something to get the wheel speed up

spend money/time waterproofing electrics. They will be your worst problem, also ditch the carpet and get something easy to clean out.

And for godsakes wash your Jeep as soon as you can after getting out of the mud, spend time on the underside, this could take you a full day tj get back cleanish. And keep up to date on touch up paint (to fight rust) and fluid service (especially diff’s. This would be a time to recommend the “harsh duty” interval)

That's a fantastic reply, thanks so much.

I need to take a bit of time to work through it, as I am not familiar with some of the terminology (not having had much experience of things mechanical before), so Google time for me tonight!

 

[Irun]

That is a really interesting point regarding the longevity of modifications. What is the issue, does the mud just get into the components and wreck them however much you clean the TJ down after a trip?

Mud aides in the rapid destruction of bearings and seals. Also, any greased surfaces trap the dirt and eventually seize up, if not monitored and maintained. A good example of this is brake calipers. Normally, they are supposed to slide, i.e. float, to prevent premature wear of the pads or rotors. When mud comes into play, the calipers can get stuck, causing brake failures. For me, every time I'm exposed to mud, I disassemble and clean all four brake corners. That said, you can wheel in it, just be prepared for more work!

 

[KingCarGuyZ]

That's a fantastic reply, thanks so much.

I need to take a bit of time to work through it, as I am not familiar with some of the terminology (not having had much experience of things mechanical before), so Google time for me tonight!

Sounds good to me, feel free to ask questions here to, we’re not like some of the other forums, we don’t mind explaining some of the “simple” stuff. You gotta learn somewhere somehow.

 

[TheBoogieman]

Thank you so much for the input. I also love the picture, but for the life of me I cannot work out how that women can be so clean in amongst everything else going on there!

Windows up until it gets stuck, then hang out of the door (out of the mud) and bitch.

p.s. Fun fact: Spraying everything underneath with Pam cooking spray helps the mud just slide off and not stain everything until you wash it. I used that trick when I raced Motocross in deep mud. Everyone else had 50 lbs of mud on their bikes.

 

[astjp2]

Windows up until it gets stuck, then hang out of the door (out of the mud) and bitch.

p.s. Fun fact: Spraying everything underneath with Pam cooking spray helps the mud just slide off and not stain everything until you wash it. I used that trick when I raced Motocross in deep mud. Everyone else had 50 lbs of mud on their bikes.

I did that to a satellite dish, attracted every bug for a mile, pressure washer would not clear up the reception!

 

[Bigeef]

Fellow UK jeeper here...

Here are some pics from a pay & play I went to in October. Didn't get many of the action but there was a lot of deep mud and rutted climbs.

My TJ did surprisingly well on 32s and no lockers. Only had to winch once cause I got wedged in a ditch, but didn't go for any crazy mud pits because I knew it would be pointless and only break stuff.

The level of challenge really depends on what you tackle as it's basically a free-for-all. Pay attention to what other vehicles are doing and what kind of mods they have to get an impression of difficulty.

 

[Goatman]

There is also the school of thought that leans towards a less capable Jeep. Then every trail becomes a technical drive. 44s and lockers with a 8cyl turbo diesel makes everything seem like a speed bump. Sometimes cheaper is funner.

 

[UKTJ]

I have been pretty busy over the last week, so have not been able to get back to this until now.

From what I have read (here and elsewhere) the options for getting power up on the 4.0L in the TJ are limited, with turbo charger or super charger being the only options that make a big difference. For now I think that is beyond where I want to go, so I will work on the basis of the stock engine for now.

I have been mulling over some of the options. Now please bear in mind, unless I have missed something in my searches the options for parts are far more limited in the UK than the US, so many of the options most of the people on this forum have are not realistic options for me - barring a holiday in the US and trying to smuggle some very heavy cases through customs!

Looking at one of the better sites in the UK I have been looking at options for two different ways forward on suspension.

The first alternative is a 2.5" OME lift. It looks to me as though there are four stages / levels I can go two:
1. Just the 2.5" lift and OME transfer case lowering kit c.£1,000 in parts
2. As per 1. plus a 1" body lift - If I have understood what I have read so far this gets me to 33" tyres c. £200 in parts
3. As per 2. but swap the transfer case lift for SYE, new prop shaft and adjustable control arms c.£2,000 in parts
4. As per 3. plus an ARB locker and regearing kit (4.56) c. £3,000 in parts
The pro's of this option as far as I can see are:
I can move forward in stages building on the previous stage
The costs are more modest, at least to start with
The big con is I will ultimately be limited to 33" max

The second alternative is a 4" lift, there are two canidates for this Teraflex and Trail Master. I suspect the second option is not one that there will be much experience of on this site as it is a European brand and I think aimed squarely at the European market. Again, I can tackle this in stages:
1. The 4" lift from either provider with SYE, new prop shaft and adjustable control arms c.£3,400 (Trail Master) to £3,800 (Teraflex)
2. As per 1. plus 1" body lift and chromoly axle shafts c. £2,500 in parts
3. As per 2. plus an ARB locker and regearing kit (4.88) c. £3,000 in parts
The pro's for this as far as I an see are:
I have scope to go to 35" at stage 2. and ultimately to have a more capable TJ
The con's are that both the initial and ultimate cost are more, and that is not even including brake upgrades as I haven't found a source / understood my options for that in the UK yet.

At the moment I am thinking the higher lift, but only going to stage 1. may be the best route. Essentially the higher lift costs me an extra £600 to £1,000 in parts (depending on manufacturer of lift). There is no reason I can't stick at 33" at that stage and I may never feel the need to take things further, but if I do want to I have the scope.

I would be interested in any general observations as well as one specific question.

The specific question is about the adjustable control arms. The Teraflex kit comes complete with the arms, see link: 4" Lift Kit w/ Flexarms & 9550 Shocks, TJ (1656452) | Jeepey - Jeep parts, spares and accessories If I were to buy the Trail Master kit I would need to buy the arms separately, I could buy the Teraflex arms or I could buy arms from RT Offroad which are a few hundred pounds less than the Teraflex ones. However, the RT Offroad ones say that they use a Johnny Joint (the Teraflex ones do not mention this) and I have read on here that type of joint is highly rated. See link to here Adjustable Lower Control Arms (RT21013) | Jeepey - Jeep parts, spares and accessories Which option on adjustable arms looks the better one? Does anyone have experience with either of these control arms? And before you say it, I know, I know, Currie arms adjustable at both ends, but I am afraid other than having them shipped from the US at very significant additional cost they do not appear to be an option in the UK.

There are obviously other things I need to do, such as the recommendation on differential breather, bumpers, winches, etc. but that is for another post...