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EV vehicle thread

Wildman

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I was curious of inflation adjusted dollars, plugging in 1969 as an arbitrary date (basically me if I was mid 50s) - that's $7,263.05 today.

You're off by about 10 years, I'm not quite that old. I bought my first truck in 1975 for $400 and it was a 1954 Dodge 1/2 ton p/u. Heck I bought a 1967 Chevelle SS for $600 in 1977 but that was because it wasn't running. But I guess if we used inflation a non-running rig might be $2-3K now?

It definitely is, there's also a huge unknown of the aftermarket when the batteries are done and need to be recycled last I have looked.

Yes from my understanding the disposal is a issue or can be and the article I'd linked earlier was talking about the increase in needed mines to gather the needed minerals now to make the current batteries. And IMO I don't see that as being green. So what is the point if we're trading off one problem for another.
 

rasband

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You're off by about 10 years, I'm not quite that old. I bought my first truck in 1975 for $400 and it was a 1954 Dodge 1/2 ton p/u. Heck I bought a 1967 Chevelle SS for $600 in 1977 but that was because it wasn't running. But I guess if we used inflation a non-running rig might be $2-3K now?



Yes from my understanding the disposal is a issue or can be and the article I'd linked earlier was talking about the increase in needed mines to gather the needed minerals now to make the current batteries. And IMO I don't see that as being green. So what is the point if we're trading off one problem for another.

I don't find the environmental argument compelling for EV, for these reasons and more. I'm sure it will be there some day, depending on mining related advancements regarding batteries as one current problem. However I've run the numbers more than a few times now, and am finding more and more the EV makes sense for 1 of our eventual 3 cars in my family. The Jeep, the EV, and some type of larger tow rig (the last one just being a nice to have that is a longer term plan).

That calculation may shift, but even so the only wear items on an EV are brakes (but not really because regenerative braking) and tires. That's a good bit less waste than my fluids and parts that need to be replaced every whatever miles. I don't care what political party people are in, less waste should overall be a good thing. We buy gold, silver and other precious metals just to preserve wealth but lose our minds there's a new application we mine for!
 
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Wildman

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I don't find the environmental argument compelling for EV, for these reasons and more. I'm sure it will be there some day, depending on mining related advancements regarding batteries as one current problem. However I've run the numbers more than a few times now, and am finding more and more the EV makes sense for 1 of our eventual 3 cars in my family. The Jeep, the EV, and some type of larger tow rig (the last one just being a nice to have that is a longer term plan).

That calculation may shift, but even so the only wear items on an EV are brakes (but not really because regenerative braking) and tires. That's a good bit less waste than my fluids and parts that need to be replaced every whatever miles. I don't care what political party people are in, less waste should overall be a good thing. We buy gold, silver and other precious metals just to preserve wealth but lose our minds there's a new application we mine for!

If I needed a commuter rig, I'm sure I'd be looking at an EV also but I don't need one so right now it isn't an issue for me. But as you pointed out they can make sense for many reasons.
For right now it is just interesting to read these threads and get different viewpoints. I don't see me buying an EV anytime soon.
 

BugoutJeep

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If I needed a commuter rig, I'm sure I'd be looking at an EV also but I don't need one so right now it isn't an issue for me. But as you pointed out they can make sense for many reasons.
For right now it is just interesting to read these threads and get different viewpoints. I don't see me buying an EV anytime soon.

What was very enticing when my wife and I were looking into EV was when she was driving ~500 mi per week and she was pretty sure the company would put in a charging station. Even then the price was break even, but I think gas was like $2 or something a gallon ~$25/week fuel. Her vehicle had regen brakes and we would need brakes like every 150k mi. Tires were just a bit over a year and that was a big expense. Changing fluids was very minimal since I do most of those in about 5 minutes for $20.

She then went work from home and then she switched jobs, so even if she had to go into the office, it's more like a 30mi/day drive and it's never been a 5 day per week office requirement and now it's just 1 day/week. On top of that if we're not going to work or getting groceries, then we need at least 4x4 or to tow/haul. I don't mind some kind of tax gimmick, so if something becomes available and makes financial sense, then I don't mind to jump on the bandwagon, but my dad has an really old 1 ton gas van that gets like 8mpg and it's WAY cheaper to run that then even buy another van.

Like many here, I hate waste and so I really prefer diesel and I'm intrigued with EV. I think EV has a lot of traits that remind me of diesel and obviously many that on paper really outshine diesel, but diesel has areas where it's superior until there's some huge tech advancement. At the moment EV just can't get the diesel range and though EV has an awesome torque curve, if you can't fuel it, it's a waste. Also pre-2010 diesels just keep working, if you treat them right and I've got 50 year old diesels that run like they were brand new and don't use much fuel. In fact they may use less fuel than brand new stuff, maybe not stuff in early 2000s. In any case I wish they'd combine EV and diesel for the best of all worlds, especially when we're talking about $100k trucks.

Honestly the EPA would mess that up anyway. Maybe I need to look into doing my own EV/diesel hybrid go kart or buggy. That being said it would be more work than I have time and those motors are kind of expensive to me for proof of concept. If I limit my speed, I might be able to make an industrial motor or fork lift motor work. I would probably go lead-acid though, at least for proof of concept and I'd want a smallish mechanically injected diesel genset, but for POC gas makes more sense. I might just build a small EV buggy (which I've been wanting) and make plenty of room and just make a spot for a standard generator that's fuel injected (I think a standard gravity fed generator would have problems with going over terrain, but we have a tractor that's gravity fed).
 
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Apparition

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What was very enticing when my wife and I were looking into EV was when she was driving ~500 mi per week and she was pretty sure the company would put in a charging station. Even then the price was break even, but I think gas was like $2 or something a gallon ~$25/week fuel. Her vehicle had regen brakes and we would need brakes like every 150k mi. Tires were just a bit over a year and that was a big expense. Changing fluids was very minimal since I do most of those in about 5 minutes for $20.

She then went work from home and then she switched jobs, so even if she had to go into the office, it's more like a 30mi/day drive and it's never been a 5 day per week office requirement and now it's just 1 day/week. On top of that if we're not going to work or getting groceries, then we need at least 4x4 or to tow/haul. I don't mind some kind of tax gimmick, so if something becomes available and makes financial sense, then I don't mind to jump on the bandwagon, but my dad has an really old 1 ton gas van that gets like 8mpg and it's WAY cheaper to run that then even buy another van.

Like many here, I hate waste and so I really prefer diesel and I'm intrigued with EV. I think EV has a lot of traits that remind me of diesel and obviously many that on paper really outshine diesel, but diesel has areas where it's superior until there's some huge tech advancement. At the moment EV just can't get the diesel range and though EV has an awesome torque curve, if you can't fuel it, it's a waste. Also pre-2010 diesels just keep working, if you treat them right and I've got 50 year old diesels that run like they were brand new and don't use much fuel. In fact they may use less fuel than brand new stuff, maybe not stuff in early 2000s. In any case I wish they'd combine EV and diesel for the best of all worlds, especially when we're talking about $100k trucks.

Honestly the EPA would mess that up anyway. Maybe I need to look into doing my own EV/diesel hybrid go kart or buggy. That being said it would be more work than I have time and those motors are kind of expensive to me for proof of concept. If I limit my speed, I might be able to make an industrial motor or fork lift motor work. I would probably go lead-acid though, at least for proof of concept and I'd want a smallish mechanically injected diesel genset, but for POC gas makes more sense. I might just build a small EV buggy (which I've been wanting) and make plenty of room and just make a spot for a standard generator that's fuel injected (I think a standard gravity fed generator would have problems with going over terrain, but we have a tractor that's gravity fed).

Lightning pro can be had for $45k and they did the 1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds.

 
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BugoutJeep

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Didn’t know how picky you’d be. For $80k a diesel makes more sense.

I think part of it is the 4wd and of course range too. The standard range is just a joke IMO. I don't think I could even go fishing with standard range and towing, let alone get to the farm with even a small piece of equipment. Plus I'd want a charger that's not incredibly slow.

Just checked again so we're looking at $85k+ just bare bones for towing and it's nowhere near what the diesel 3/4 or larger can do and the old diesels just keep on working for hundreds of thousands of miles and it costs me $35 to change my oil typically and it's easier to do than a car since I can just scoot under there and change it.

For my old diesel truck, empty trips with road tires the range is 700 miles. Typically for towing the range is over 450 mi if I were to tow at the capacity of these EVs. And the truck is 4x4 which is a must for me.
 
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I think part of it is the 4wd and of course range too. The standard range is just a joke IMO. I don't think I could even go fishing with standard range and towing, let alone get to the farm with even a small piece of equipment. Plus I'd want a charger that's not incredibly slow.

Just checked again so we're looking at $85k+ just bare bones for towing and it's nowhere near what the diesel 3/4 or larger can do and the old diesels just keep on working for hundreds of thousands of miles and it costs me $35 to change my oil typically and it's easier to do than a car since I can just scoot under there and change it.

For my old diesel truck, empty trips with road tires the range is 700 miles. Typically for towing the range is over 450 mi if I were to tow at the capacity of these EVs. And the truck is 4x4 which is a must for me.

At this point it really depends on what you need it for. If you need to go get some plywood from Home Depot 15 minutes away it’d be perfect. Which is what 75% of truck owners use them for.
 

BugoutJeep

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At this point it really depends on what you need it for. If you need to go get some plywood from Home Depot 15 minutes away it’d be perfect. Which is what 75% of truck owners use them for.

Though this isn't just an EV thing, but all the regulations on new trucks, pretty much have me not wanting EV or anything that's offered. I think I'd rather rebuild an old truck for the reliability. I know at work they can afford to drop $60k on a truck and then spend $6k every year on various emissions and mechanical issues. If I'm dropping $6k/year, I'm gonna change course.
 

Wildman

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Though this isn't just an EV thing, but all the regulations on new trucks, pretty much have me not wanting EV or anything that's offered. I think I'd rather rebuild an old truck for the reliability. I know at work they can afford to drop $60k on a truck and then spend $6k every year on various emissions and mechanical issues. If I'm dropping $6k/year, I'm gonna change course.

I really thought about keeping my 2006 Ram 3500 and just adding a exhaust brake & built transmission. And then a dually swap on the rear axle but the problem I found was that I couldn't find any way to increase the tow capacity on the truck. Sure I could do things that would allow it to tow more weight safely BUT if I was in an accident and was over the GVWR I could be screwed. My sisters horse shoer went thru this and lost his farm and everything else.

I like your idea of a hybrid diesel rig. I'd be willing to bet there could be a good little pony engine out there that could be used.
I'll continue to watch how EV develops and if I am in a position where I could/would actually use it then I might consider one. But there needs to be some changes first. And as I've said I really no longer have a NEED. Being retired and the only longer trips I'm taking will be done in a motorhome so that pretty much eliminates a EV for me.
 
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Zorba

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@BugoutJeep - I've been saying this for YEARS. Stop screwing around with inefficient gas engines with poor torque curves, stop throwing expensive tech at them to make them an approx equal of a diesel's economy, and make a damn diesel-electric hybrid. Maybe even a "series hybrid" without batteries - I don't know what the tradeoffs are.
 
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BugoutJeep

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@BugoutJeep - I've been saying this for YEARS. Stop screwing around with inefficient gas engines with poor torque curves, stop throwing expensive tech at them to make them an approx equal of a diesel's economy, and make a damn diesel-electric hybrid. Maybe even a "series hybrid" without batteries - I don't know what the tradeoffs are.

My only hesitancy is that I have several gas generators, so if I can get a dc motor(s) in a buggy that moves ok over terrain, then it's rather easy for me to stick a gas generator I already own on there to charge some batteries and if that works pretty well, then I'll start trying to figure out a proper diesel genset or create one from a mechanical diesel from China or something.
 
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InOmaha

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What you are describing has been around since the early 1900s. They were used in boats, busses, trains, submarines, etc. Do a search for electric motor traction transmissions. Turbine electric or diesel electric.

Here is the old is new again equivalent of what you want with a gas engine, in a small car.

Truck manufacturers need to stop caring about 1/4 mile EV times and build something like this in their trucks.

https://www.carlist.my/news/nissan-introduces-new-range-extender-ev-powertrain-61637/61637/
 
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BugoutJeep

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I think a "hybrid" buggy would be awesome though. I think it would be cool for something like a "silent" switch, where there's not generator noise, which will be very noisy. In general this is going to be much noisier than a typical EV, but I think this would be a lot of fun. Though I may even find that I don't really need the gen set, so we'll see, assuming I actually go through with my plan, but even if it dies in excel, it would be kinda fun. I got excited some years ago about going EV in my YJ, but then started adding up everything and then realizing the limitations, and it was just obviously not feasible for any reasonable cost.

In any case this seems like something easy to research on Youtube sometime when I'm bored and the more I find out may just be to recognize that the budget is going to be WAY too high for anything that would be enjoyable. Also I want to research battery chemistries more and see about mixing chemistries in different systems. I would assume, for starters, 8 GC2 batteries, which is a bit under 10kwh, 48V ~500lbs, so we're already talking about some substantial weight, which is where I do have a preference for Li, but there's some hurdles, so maybe if I have something like 5kwh of Li, 2 kwh for aux/keeping batteries warm enough to be charged, etc.
 

InOmaha

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The range extender concept is nice because heating and cooling takes so much power.

The other day was 100 F here, then it dropped 40 F yesterday down in the 60s. It got to -25 F (and lower wind chills) up here for a couple days when Texas had its freezing issue.

The range extender ICE provides free waste heat in winter when battery output drops anyway.
 
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BugoutJeep

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What you are describing has been around since the early 1900s. They were used in boats, busses, trains, submarines, etc. Do a search for electric motor traction transmissions. Turbine electric or diesel electric.

Here is the old is new again equivalent of what you want with a gas engine, in a small car.

Truck manufacturers need to stop carring about 1/4 mile times and build something like this in their trucks.

https://www.carlist.my/news/nissan-introduces-new-range-extender-ev-powertrain-61637/61637/

Yeah this stuff is absolutely nothing new. Just rarely offered, plus I want something I can play around in on the farm. If I can make it for what I feel is reasonable it would be a fun pursuit.

The Prius engine is interesting since accessories don't run off of the engine, since the engine isn't always running in all situations. However that kind of hybrid is mostly just setup to run off a battery when sitting still and small boost to get the tires rolling.

Side note/tangent, it's my understanding that since the US barred diesel electric in subs (I believe a crew was killed, but maybe I'm misremembering the article) and went nuke/electric, that tech has gotten better (and other countries don't care about dead crews), I think for exhaust or intake or something and now US submarines are easier to track than diesel electric, since diesel electric doesn't require the additional pumps to always flow, where as the Nuke must be continually cooled. Just makes me think of the Hunt for Red October, except when they go electric, there's virtually no sound.
 

Zorba

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What you are describing has been around since the early 1900s. They were used in boats, busses, trains, submarines, etc. Do a search for electric motor traction transmissions. Turbine electric or diesel electric.

Here is the old is new again equivalent of what you want with a gas engine, in a small car.

Truck manufacturers need to stop caring about 1/4 mile EV times and build something like this in their trucks.

https://www.carlist.my/news/nissan-introduces-new-range-extender-ev-powertrain-61637/61637/
That is completely correct. My late Father in Law was involved with D-E locomotive design on the Diesel side before I was even friggin' born. The Nissan makes a huge amount of sense, although I'd hope for a diesel.
 
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BugoutJeep

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That is completely correct. My late Father in Law was involved with D-E locomotive design on the Diesel side before I was even friggin' born. The Nissan makes a huge amount of sense, although I'd hope for a diesel.

Rant Warning.....

Too many OEMs end up getting sued for any programming mistake, even if the EPA makes the mistake, when they are being forced to neuter diesels. Obviously VW was tricking the EPA to make a better more reliable and efficient product, but I think Dodge had to spend a bunch of money on nonsense with the ecodiesel and I don't think it's clear that there was even a mistake made. The EPA tunes are simply horrible and it's just putting their thumbs on the scale because they can go after a minority of voters and the testing isn't even real world.

Gas in so many ways is a much worse fuel, yet they're so inefficient and have a crappy torque curve that the EPA is fine with them. Gas releases more VOC sitting in tanks not being used than diesels create in their ENTIRE consumption. And gas releases more VOCs from emissions than diesels. Diesels are so efficient that the EPA has forced them to be so detuned that the new designs lowered the compression ratios to further detune engines (I might be wrong about this, but I heard it from someone at Cummins unofficially, I wonder if it actually has something to do with all of the boost pressure), because too much efficiency will create NOx. All while emitting less carbon for the work they're doing. Even EPA MPG estimates are high for gas engines and low on diesel engines. They aren't a savior by any means but they're a tool we aren't allowed to use in the US and when I was looking at air quality data, it's kinda hard to figure out how these regulations are based, if it's not based on political science. And the basic fuel requires less processing (until it was regulated to process out sulfur) and issues about containment than gasoline.

The other crazy fact is that with mandated emissions equipment you get increased risk of fires and I believe there was some research (you can find a study to say anything so take it with somewhat of grain of salt) suggesting a single fire would be a net negative of all the emissions and yet combines and tractors and equipment will burn occasionally because of emissions equipment. That's a lot of diesel, tires, plastic, etc that's burning, not including the field that just caught on fire, because that flammable dust has to go somewhere and the EPA added a burner to the exhaust. Otherwise diesel is a combustible and not flammable so they have less fire hazards, until they are on fire.
 
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