Gear pattern check and backlash questions

[Vinman]

First time regearing and have a few questions.
How do the patterns look?
And when I measure backlash in 4 spots equally spaced around the ring gear I have the following: .007, .008, .0085 and .055
All within the .006-.010 spec but surprised how much they vary.
Pinion preload is 10 in/lb without the seal and using an inner setup race and outer setup bearing. Spec is 6-9 in/lb.

The first two pics are the same teeth and don’t make sense to me given their position. The second two pics are a different set of teeth 180 degrees from the first pics.
th

 

[hosejockey61]

What axle is this? Front, rear, HP30, LP30 or?

Patterns look pretty good to be honest with you. Backlash is good. However, pinion bearing pre-load prior to the seal should be 16-20ish. Where did you get that the spec was 6-9? How did you account for carrier pre-load? Case spreader or whacks with a dead blow hammer? Also, there is no need to use a set up outer pinion bearing. It doesn't press on tight like other bearings. You can tap the pinion back out with a punch.

 

[Vinman]

06 Rubicon 44 front with the stock locker and G2 4.88 gears.
I read the Dana 60 bible on Pirate and basically went off it. It says to use a setup bearing on the outer pinion and while doing so, preload should be 6-9 and with new bearings it would be 16-20 like you said.
I set the carrier preload by using the same total thickness off shims that I removed then added a couple thousand. Carrier goes in snug with a deadblow hammer.

 

[jboswell11]

Just an amateur gear setter here so I'd let @Rob5589 or one of the others more experienced comment "looks good" before I buttoned it up.

Looks like a rubi locker so I assume a Dana 44.

With that wide range of backlash measurements I would suggest measuring carrier and ring gear runout.. Something seems off with a .003 swing in measurements.

Don't worry about pinion preload until pinion height and backlash give you a good pattern. 14-19 in lb for new bearings.

Pattern positions look to me like you could pull a few thou out to move the drive side more towards the heel and the coast side more towards the toe, bring them together and tweak backlash to land them where ya want heel/toe (likely tighten to .0065-.007)

 

[hosejockey61]

06 Rubicon 44 front with the stock locker and G2 4.88 gears.
I read the Dana 60 bible on Pirate and basically went off it. It says to use a setup bearing on the outer pinion and while doing so, preload should be 6-9 and with new bearings it would be 16-20 like you said.
I set the carrier preload by using the same total thickness off shims that I removed then added a couple thousand. Carrier goes in snug with a deadblow hammer.
[/QUOTE

One thing I've learned from setting up gears is when using a setup bearing, use a new one not used. When talking about the pinion, if you don't have a clamshell puller then you will need a setup race for the inner bearing. The outer race and bearing can be the new bearings, no need for a setup bearing on that side. Also when running a pattern, make sure you have the bearing caps on finger tight (as you probably already know).

I would remeasure again and see if you get the same results. If you aren't measuring the exact same way I would suspect that could throw your numbers off like that (3 of the 4 are close). Doing a runout check isn't a bad idea at all for reference. What I would actually do (in addition to runout check) is pull the locker out, make sure the bearing caps and housing are clean. Reinstall the locker and measure again. Make sure the locker is seated all the way. Sometimes it will feel like it is and not quite be set. Same for the pinion, make sure the bearings are seated properly. While you don't have to tighten to spec to run a pattern, you want it tight enough there isn't any in/out play. I ran into this type of problem setting JJVW's rear gears. It was so slight that it was difficult to discover, yet enough to throw off patterns at only a .001 change.

 

[Vinman]

One thing I've learned from setting up gears is when using a setup bearing, use a new one not used. When talking about the pinion, if you don't have a clamshell puller then you will need a setup race for the inner bearing. The outer race and bearing can be the new bearings, no need for a setup bearing on that side. Also when running a pattern, make sure you have the bearing caps on finger tight (as you probably already know).

I would remeasure again and see if you get the same results. If you aren't measuring the exact same way I would suspect that could throw your numbers off like that (3 of the 4 are close). Doing a runout check isn't a bad idea at all for reference. What I would actually do (in addition to runout check) is pull the locker out, make sure the bearing caps and housing are clean. Reinstall the locker and measure again. Make sure the locker is seated all the way. Sometimes it will feel like it is and not quite be set. Same for the pinion, make sure the bearings are seated properly. While you don't have to tighten to spec to run a pattern, you want it tight enough there isn't any in/out play. I ran into this type of problem setting JJVW's rear gears. It was so slight that it was difficult to discover, yet enough to throw off patterns at only a .001 change.

Thanks for the help.
- I am using a setup race with a new inner pinion bearing.
- I did all the pattern checks with the caps in place and slightly snugged up, definitely more than finger tight but not seated all the way. (I just hit them quick with an impact driver, not hammering them home)
-I just did a carrier runout check and it is within 0015 all the way around
- tomorrow I will pull everything out and thoroughly clean everything and re-install but use the new outer pinion bearing this time.

thanks again

 

[Rob5589]

Pattern looks a touch deep. I'd pull the ring gear, use a large flat file and run it across the gear mating surface of the carrier and back of ring gear. Then remount and torque the ring gear. Recheck if bl is more consistent.

 

[Vinman]

Ok, I’m going to basically start from scratch and pull the ring gear, run a file over it and the mating surface of the carrier, thoroughly clean everything and try again with a new outer pinion bearing instead of the setup I was using.
Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate the help.
I’ll post up new pics in a few hours.

 

[hosejockey61]

Ok, I’m going to basically start from scratch and pull the ring gear, run a file over it and the mating surface of the carrier, thoroughly clean everything and try again with a new outer pinion bearing instead of the setup I was using.
Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate the help.
I’ll post up new pics in a few hours.

Do it with a smile...

 

[Vinman]

Do it with a smile...

Lol, this project hasn’t pissed me off yet...

 

[Vinman]

Ok, new pics now.
- removed ring gear and ran a flat file on mating surface the gear and carrier
- thoroughly cleaned housing, races, pinion and ring gear
-installed new outer pinion bearing with next to no preload, basically tightened the pinion nut until no play
- backlash was measured in 4 spots 90 degrees apart
-.007, .010, . 006 and .007
- ring gear runout is .001

 

[hosejockey61]

Too deep. And that was all the same settings as before?

 

[someguysjeep]

i could be wrong here.
but i'd be sure the pinion preload was in spec and then jamb a wood wedge in there so you need a wrench to crank the pinion........don't bash it in there just enough pressure you need a tool to turn the pinion across your marking paste.

 

[hosejockey61]

Pinion preload doesn't need to be in spec but you do need to feel a little resistance to ensure the bearing is seated. If you add a bunch of pinion shims then the bearing won't make proper contact allowing for slight lateral movement.

I use a drill on low setting with a 1 1/8" socket to turn the pinion while I press down on the ring gear with a leather glove.

 

[Vinman]

All the same shims as before in both carrier and pinion depth.
The more I think about it the less I believe pinion preload would effect backlash or gear mesh.
I’ll make a slight change and try to get the pattern a little higher

 

[Vinman]

Pinion preload doesn't need to be in spec but you do need to feel a little resistance to ensure the bearing is seated. If you add a bunch of pinion shims then the bearing won't make proper contact allowing for slight lateral movement.

I use a drill on low setting with a 1 1/8" socket to turn the pinion while I press down on the ring gear with a leather glove.

Great idea on the drill and glove technique, I’ll definitely give that a shot and double check the pattern before doing anything else.

 

[Vinman]

Ok, 18th times the charm, right
I moved the pinion slightly and slightly adjusted backlash and ran a new pattern.
Backlash as measure again 90 degrees apart is .009, 007, 006 and 008 with 009 and 006 being 180 degrees apart. Hows the pattern look now?
And drill/glove method worked awesome!

 

[Rob5589]

Ok, 18th times the charm, right
I moved the pinion slightly and slightly adjusted backlash and ran a new pattern.
Backlash as measure again 90 degrees apart is .009, 007, 006 and 008 with 009 and 006 being 180 degrees apart. Hows the pattern look now?
And drill/glove method worked awesome!
View attachment 152574View attachment 152575View attachment 152576View attachment 152577

Still looks a touch deep on the drive side. I would pull .003 and check again.
Your findings with regards to the set up bearings should be evidence that if you use them, make sure they are new. Even minimal wear will affect the set up.

 

[Vinman]

Still looks a touch deep on the drive side. I would pull .003 and check again.
Your findings with regards to the set up bearings should be evidence that if you use them, make sure they are new. Even minimal wear will affect the set up.

This time around I’m not using setup bearings, the only setup part I’m using is the inner pinion race. The carrier and inner pinion bearings were new right from the beginning. I’ll pull another .003 from the inner pinion, adjust backlash and run another pattern.

 

[hosejockey61]

Still looks a touch deep on the drive side. I would pull .003 and check again.
Your findings with regards to the set up bearings should be evidence that if you use them, make sure they are new. Even minimal wear will affect the set up.

In your experience, do you still favor the drive side pattern over the coast side pattern on a front LP axle since it would be primarily using the coast side?