Help diagnosing death wobble on 2004 Wrangler

Shawn B said:
You think that could be it if that's the drop bracket and pitman that been there for years with never a wobble? Just wondering.
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Things change slowly , and movement starts .

At some point it gets bad enough it overpowers the vehicle s natural tendency to track .

yes I feel confident you got something track bar related going on and if I could see the mount and how the track bar is positioned in the mount that may be of help.

A rough country mount turns the end of the track bar at 90° to how they are designed , except for a rough country track bar . Not necessarily a sin , but needs considered .

That mount squeezes the drivers side frame rail , if you have the vehicle off and turn the wheel either way , and hear a pop pop pop , it's that mount moving .

Again , that set up is highly leveraged and the forces it takes to stabilize a moving vehicle coil spring front end at speed can be a lot .

The fact a bump sets it off tells me the track bar is at play. It's design is to fight bumps and control the movement they cause ..it isn't doing that.
 
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AndyG said:
The best way to check lower control arms is actively . Roll it and slam the brakes and watch the connections .

There are 2 things that stand out here -

It is speed specific - normally that's tire

And bump activated - that is normally track bar related .

He could have a bent yoke or something weird , I might would pull the front shaft just to say I did .

He's been thorough , but this is what he needs to look at harder:

A 4" rough country lift comes with a dropped pitman arm , and sure enough , he has one on the TJ. That needs to go , bump steer isn't going to help .

Secondly , I can't see his upper track bar mount , but I bet if it's dry tested ,he's got some movement he doesn't realize . 1/16" in on direction is 1/8 both ways , and so forth ...that will rock your world.

His track bar may be a heim joint type , and it appears there is no dropped mount (that type isn't compatible with rough country dropped mount anyway , so that's actually good ) but a heim joint type has a longer bolt that tends to rock back and forth if even slightly loose

Think of the wind blowing a tree, little movement at the base , 6-8 feet at the top. That principal applies to any track bar bolt that has a stand off type design.
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Give me a little more info on what your thinking. The kit does have a drop pitman and the drop track bar bracket. Not sure what joint type the all the new track bars have but there was no wobble with the current pitman or drop bracket from RC for years. Could the pitman or drop bracket create this wobble this long after installing them with the kit?
I will try removing the front driveshaft.

"1/16" in on direction is 1/8 both way" you mean where the track bar mounts into the drop bracket?

Thx
 
AndyG said:
Things change slowly , and movement starts .

At some point it gets bad enough it overpowers the vehicle s natural tendency to track .

yes I feel confident you got something track bar related going on and if I could see the mount and how the track bar is positioned in the mount that may be of help.

A rough country mount turns the end of the track bar at 90° to how they are designed , except for a rough country track bar . Not necessarily a sin , but needs considered .

That mount squeezes the drivers side frame rail , if you have the vehicle off and turn the wheel either way , and hear a pop pop pop , it's that mount moving .

Again , that set up is highly leveraged and the forces it takes to stabilize a moving vehicle coil spring front end at speed can be a lot .

The fact a bump sets it off tells me the track bar is at play. It's design is to fight bumps and control the movement they cause ..it isn't doing that.
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If the problem is tires I cant imagine what else I can to to resolve that with all I've done to eliminate tires as the problem

I do not have a RC track bar currently. If the kit came with one it's gone now. I'm not sure if it came with one but I dont think so.

Today I checked the torque on the bolts attaching the drop bracket that pinches the left side frame and they couldn't possibly be any tighter.

I will take a close pic of the track bar mount and bracket Monday. Its still on the lift right now. Thank you!

So your thought would be to next remove the upper track bar bracket and drop pitman? Use a stock type track bar in the Jeeps OE mounting hole?
 
Shawn B said:
Give me a little more info on what your thinking. The kit does have a drop pitman and the drop track bar bracket. Not sure what joint type the all the new track bars have but there was no wobble with the current pitman or drop bracket from RC for years. Could the pitman or drop bracket create this wobble this long after installing them with the kit?
I will try removing the front driveshaft.

"1/16" in on direction is 1/8 both way" you mean where the track bar mounts into the drop bracket?

Thx
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Correct , if you have the engine off, and turn the wheel from 10-2 slowly , and either end of that bar (axle end, track bar end , or track bar drop mount to frame ) or all point move any , you have what it takes for death wobble .

Remember the dropped mount adds another connection .

If each point moves 1/32, that 3/32 of movement , doubled that's 3/16 , at 50 mph that's a lot . Odds are one of the 3 points moves way more .

I have the same rough country set up , and my mount shimmied and popped , so I welded it .

It's not ideal , but I have an incredibly good driving TJ with 33" tires on real head locks and a 4" lift, and I'm confident you will before it's over.

The deal is this -Tjs are short and light ....so it's not that they are hard to dial in , it's just that they are sensitive to excess movement.
 
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Those nuts can be tight and it can still move ..it may be nothing more than metal fatigue.
 
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Incidentally , I like the way you have approached all this .

You have done a lot right .

Just stay attentive to the track bar , make sure the pitman arm isn't loose(that can happen ) and don't be satisfied until it's safe and fun to drive .

I have personally resurrected 2 that were beyond bad , and been underneath a lot of them ..it is almost something very small , and hard to notice....once you know what you are looking for it gets easier.
 
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AndyG said:
Incidentally , I like the way you have approached all this .

You have done a lot right .

Just stay attentive to the track bar , make sure the pitman arm isn't loose(that can happen ) and don't be satisfied until it's safe and fun to drive .

I have personally resurrected 2 that were beyond bad , and been underneath a lot of them ..it is almost something very small , and hard to notice....once you know what you are looking for it gets easier.
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You would suggest I next remove the drop pitman for a factory, remove the drop track bar bracket, and keep the new OE style track bar? I still have not replaced the RC lower control arms (but they look pretty damn tight) and I have not replaced the upper control arm bushings at the axle end as I believe they are OE and it doesn't look like they want to come out without a fight.

Im clearly no Jeep expert but I run a shop where we repair technical things every day. I have a customer come in with a wobble in a Wrangler every month or so, so I'm not totally unfairly with this process, but I've never had one we cant resolve with the normal replacements like tires, ball jts, tie rods, track bar, alignment, and so on. Admittedly most, if not all Jeep wobbles we fix are not lifted Jeeps. Just my luck it's my own Jeep giving us all the problems....
 
AndyG said:
What brand track bar is on the vehicle now ? Can you post a pic of each end .

We can fix this together most likely .

You have been very thorough , and are using good equipment and people it appears , and I commend you for that , death wobble is typically hard to diagnose because something minute isn't being seen ....and it takes movement to start it , and the tires almost always do that , and it can be the slightest worn component that allows it to continue and /or magnify the movement .

The track bars' job is to keep the axle centered , and if the bar is loose , it is trying to do that versus the energy of the movement , and it will shake your eye teeth out.
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"We can fix this together most likely."


I like that about this community. Thank you. Now just to decide what to try next on Monday. Upper arm bushings at axle end, new RC lower arms (would have to order and wait), new oe pitman, remove track bar drop bracket, different track bar, different alignment settings, or?? I appreciate all the suggestions and knowledge here on this forum. I will take close pics of the track bar and bracket Monday
 
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Does installing the track bar on the lift with the suspension hanging vs. replacing it on the drive on lift with the suspension loaded make a difference in this?
 
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And it was commented that ONLY a RC track bar will work with a RC lift kit and RC track bar drop bracket. I definitely do NOT currently have a RC track bar in there right now.
 
Shawn B said:
You think that could be it if that's the drop bracket and pitman that been there for years with never a wobble? Just wondering.
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That should have shown up in the dry and power steering tests. After you do it with the engine off, start it and move it back and forth until it starts to JUST turn the tires and do that rapidly. If something is going to move that shouldn't, that will show it.
 
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Shawn B said:
You would suggest I next remove the drop pitman for a factory, remove the drop track bar bracket, and keep the new OE style track bar? I still have not replaced the RC lower control arms (but they look pretty damn tight) and I have not replaced the upper control arm bushings at the axle end as I believe they are OE and it doesn't look like they want to come out without a fight.

Im clearly no Jeep expert but I run a shop where we repair technical things every day. I have a customer come in with a wobble in a Wrangler every month or so, so I'm not totally unfairly with this process, but I've never had one we cant resolve with the normal replacements like tires, ball jts, tie rods, track bar, alignment, and so on. Admittedly most, if not all Jeep wobbles we fix are not lifted Jeeps. Just my luck it's my own Jeep giving us all the problems....
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I want to know which ones you have fixed with alignment only.
 
Shawn B said:
"We can fix this together most likely."


I like that about this community. Thank you. Now just to decide what to try next on Monday. Upper arm bushings at axle end, new RC lower arms (would have to order and wait), new oe pitman, remove track bar drop bracket, different track bar, different alignment settings, or?? I appreciate all the suggestions and knowledge here on this forum. I will take close pics of the track bar and bracket Monday
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Stop. Do one thing at a time. Do not replace anything until you absolutely know what the problem is. Just because someone else has or had the issue doesn't mean shit.
 
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Shawn B said:
Does installing the track bar on the lift with the suspension hanging vs. replacing it on the drive on lift with the suspension soon loaded make a difference in this?
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Clevite bushing at axle end, yes, it over rotates the bonded bolt sleeve and it will break loose much sooner from the isolation element.
 
Catching back up.

First , Mr. Blaine trumps anything I say , I'm observant , think conceptually and have some experience .

He has vast experience , and smarts to go with them , and understands steering geometry at a level I have never seen before. Always read his posts .

Back to your front end .

You have eliminated a lot of variables in your approach already.

If you have a dropped track bar mount (you do) and a dropped pitman arm (you do) they negate each other so you don't "have" to start over . It's not the preferred set up , but my 03 has it with a Rough Country lift with a dropped track bar mount and dropped pitman arm and it drives car-like...what you end up with is both the track bar and drag link at a more horizontal angle , and that is considered to be good.

WHAT YOU NEVER WANT IS A DROPPED PITMAN AND STOCK TRACK BAR MOUNT . I just removed this from my 06 Tj, and it is a must for good handling . Dropped pitman arms are largely out here due to a one size fits all mentality by lift manufacturers.

Again , a dropped arm and track bar is not the ideal set up for under 4" of lift , but it doesn't cause or allow death wobble more than a normal set up to my understanding.

Death wobble isn't a set up problem generally as much as a movement problem , so something has crept up on your rig that has begun to allow movement that isn't obvious when dry testing or on the rack . Note that statement.. something has crept up. A fractured weld , an elongated hole, an undertorqued bolt on the track bar (after market track bars often have near double the torque spec). What stands out is you didn't change anything , it just randomly started , which tells me something changed itself for you .

What you do need to watch for is excess movement by the dropped track bar mount first . I have looked at your picture until I am straining but can't make out the frame side mount . What I think I see appears stock ...note the word "think."

What does seem to grab my eye is there seems no exposed threads below the pitman arm, my rough country pitman arm has 4-5 threads below it. Maybe it's camera angle .

There is no such thing as "unfixable death wobble" to my knowledge , unless something is basically scrap yard condition ...and you have a very nice looking , clean TJ ..I really think this is going to be a matter of finding something loose that really surprised you .

I hope you can post a pic of the mounts on either end , and check with the exact track bar you have now manufacturer on the torque specs .

Don't be casual .

Also , another brand track bar could work in your mount , but it could also be a big part of the issue if it isn't compatible in design .

I also suspect your death wobble is less tires and more on the track bar and /or linkage simply by the tire size and condition, as well as the fact it takes higher speed and a bump to get it going .

Knowing the steering is new , it is really likely something is either happening at the track bar , the frame mount or the pitman arm .

I would not buy a single part , but focus entirely on diagnosis , and unless something is way loose , I would not worry as much about the control arms as I would anything designed to allow or control left to right movement , which is steering linkage and track bar respectively.

Keep us posted.
 
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AndyG said:
Catching back up.

First , Mr. Blaine trumps anything I say , I'm observant , think conceptually and have some experience .

He has vast experience , and smarts to go with them , and understands steering geometry at a level I have never seen before. Always read his posts .

Back to your front end .

You have eliminated a lot of variables in your approach already.

If you have a dropped track bar mount (you do) and a dropped pitman arm (you do) they negate each other so you don't "have" to start over . It's not the preferred set up , but my 03 has it with a Rough Country lift with a dropped track bar mount and dropped pitman arm and it drives car-like...what you end up with is both the track bar and drag link at a more horizontal angle , and that is considered to be good.

WHAT YOU NEVER WANT IS A DROPPED PITMAN AND STOCK TRACK BAR MOUNT . I just removed this from my 06 Tj, and it is a must for good handling . Dropped pitman arms are largely out here due to a one size fits all mentality by lift manufacturers.

Again , a dropped arm and track bar is not the ideal set up for under 4" of lift , but it doesn't cause or allow death wobble more than a normal set up to my understanding.

Death wobble isn't a set up problem generally as much as a movement problem , so something has crept up on your rig that has begun to allow movement that isn't obvious when dry testing or on the rack . Note that statement.. something has crept up. A fractured weld , an elongated hole, an undertorqued bolt on the track bar (after market track bars often have near double the torque spec). What stands out is you didn't change anything , it just randomly started , which tells me something changed itself for you .

What you do need to watch for is excess movement by the dropped track bar mount first . I have looked at your picture until I am straining but can't make out the frame side mount . What I think I see appears stock ...note the word "think."

What does seem to grab my eye is there seems no exposed threads below the pitman arm, my rough country pitman arm has 4-5 threads below it. Maybe it's camera angle .

There is no such thing as "unfixable death wobble" to my knowledge , unless something is basically scrap yard condition ...and you have a very nice looking , clean TJ ..I really think this is going to be a matter of finding something loose that really surprised you .

I hope you can post a pic of the mounts on either end , and check with the exact track bar you have now manufacturer on the torque specs .

Don't be casual .

Also , another brand track bar could work in your mount , but it could also be a big part of the issue if it isn't compatible in design .

I also suspect your death wobble is less tires and more on the track bar and /or linkage simply by the tire size and condition, as well as the fact it takes higher speed and a bump to get it going .

Knowing the steering is new , it is really likely something is either happening at the track bar , the frame mount or the pitman arm .

I would not buy a single part , but focus entirely on diagnosis , and unless something is way loose , I would not worry as much about the control arms as I would anything designed to allow or control left to right movement , which is steering linkage and track bar respectively.

Keep us posted.
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Thank you for your ideas. I agree there was nothing I changed to start all of this. It just started a couple months ago and has been getting worse and now is predictable to start at 50-55 after going over the slightest bump every time. There is nothing obviously loose but something is clearly wrong. My new track bar may not be compatible with my RC drop bracket... I'll post some detailed pictures of everything on Monday and post them here. Maybe I'll call Rough Country and get their track bar to go with the rest of the RC suspension to eliminate the track bar as a possible culprit?

"something has crept up. A fractured weld , an elongated hole, an undertorqued bolt on the track bar"

This could be the issue. We didnt look that deep or thoroughly into every bolt/hole yet. We have focused on eliminating the tire possiblity and looking for anything loose then replacing parts. As of today there is nothing obviously loose when doing the dry steering test.
 
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