How clean should a contractor be?

[Ocho]

We were told it would take 60-90 days. It took 7 months from contract signing to final inspection. The last month was spent in multiple attempts to get the concrete sub-floor level with existing. The final result was "ok" from a gross standpoint, but was still a bit "lumpy" where I had to double and even triple up on the underlayment in select spots for the laminate floor. Still not optimal by any means, but I was so tired of dealing with this that I just let it go. The rest of the job was done quite well, even if the masonry sub was a bit out of square...

7 months for 150 sqft.. yikes. i just finished the last two 2-story buildings (15k sqft each) of an apartment complex in 9 months soup to nuts including grading and a concrete parking lot with 7k sqft of solar carports. permit phase took maybe 2 months so all of that under a year..

 

[Ocho]

Exactly- What creates a lot of the problems you see in the other posts above is a disjointed effort.

this is my biggest struggle.. can't get the architects, civil, structural and mep engineers to all be on the same page.. i'm on a delta 19 for a current project with 146 rfi's..

considering the fact we always use the same architects and engineers, you'd think that the next project which is nearly identical would be correct at the onset right? nope. I'm on delta 8 with 64 rfi's, 59 of which are the exact same rfi's from the earlier project... smh

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Exactly- What creates a lot of the problems you see in the other posts above is a disjointed effort.

I have experience as a project manager handling multimillion $ product development projects involving dozens of people crossing functions from engineering, supply chain, manufacturing, service, etc and meeting deadlines or explaining why I didn't to executives who don't even know my name, so I know it can be done and it makes my blood boil to see no project management skills whatsoever being applied. The GC's here have no skin in the game because all their contracts are templates developed by the state homebuilders association with no consequences for poor management that ends up costing only the buyer in rework and construction loan interest.

 

[AndyG]

Do you guys want to think about something radical???

Construction is just manufacturing- that is all. It isn’t a trade and it isn’t a craft and it isn’t an art and all this other junk- The trades are just specialties within that category-

Here is why it is so difficult-

It is done remotely , with lots of variation- These two things alone account for why America has the largest failure rate of contractors of anybody in the world- now add that 1/2 the workers are stoned or hungover, can’t speak or read the language and poorly trained and supervised.

That is the reality-

If you went to Toyota and said we’re going to start doing this out in a field tomorrow and we’re going to do it different every time they would tell you you’ve lost your mind- and you will.

You win by defeating this with superb organization, efficiency planning and diligence- As I’m typing this we’re making a countertop mock up for a customer and delivering it to her house so that she can put her sink templates on it and decide her vanity layout-

This speeds up the process later and prevent problems anyway you look at it-

Realistically I will never see the profit I’d like- I could be retired or on the Ferrari forum if it weren’t for the mistakes and crazy crap-

Yesterday we bumped a pvc line 7-8’ from the work area- boom. Flooded the partial basement.

 

[HDRider]

We have two kinds of contractors here. The kind you don't want and the kind you can't get.

The kind you don't want are all meth heads.

The kind you can't get are good and too busy.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Do you guys want to think about something radical???

Construction is just manufacturing- that is all. It isn’t a trade and it isn’t a craft and it isn’t an art and all this other junk- The trades are just specialties within that category-

Here is why it is so difficult-

It is done remotely , with lots of variation- These two things alone account for why America has the largest failure rate of contractors of anybody in the world- now add that 1/2 the workers are stoned or hungover, can’t speak or read the language and poorly trained and supervised.

That is the reality-

If you went to Toyota and said we’re going to start doing this out in a field tomorrow and we’re going to do it different every time they would tell you you’ve lost your mind- and you will.

You win by defeating this with superb organization, efficiency planning and diligence- As I’m typing this we’re making a countertop mock up for a customer and delivering it to her house so that she can put her sink templates on it and decide her vanity layout-

This speeds up the process later and prevent problems anyway you look at it-

Realistically I will never see the profit I’d like- I could be retired or on the Ferrari forum if it weren’t for the mistakes and crazy crap-

Yesterday we bumped a pvc line 7-8’ from the work area- boom. Flooded the partial basement.

YES!!! You're exactly right.

There's a house two doors down from mine, being built by one of the big corporate contractors that develop an entire subdivision and fill it with maybe half a dozen different floorplans differentiated by mirroring, or different materials/colors on the elevation.

We started at the same time. Theirs is probably 500sf larger. Mine is dried in and partially roughed in. They will be in before Labor Day - house is done, they're just finishing up gutter downspouts, final grade and landscaping. The only people that are already living on the street say they've had workers there almost every day since April.

The reason is they take a manufacturing approach to the process, doing up front work to speed things up later. Work smarter, not harder. Manage projects, select and order materials up front. I'm sure they have a warehouse somewhere to store materials until they're needed.

Clearly you know all this. I wish more did. Unfortunately it seems most of the ones around here that have figured that out, also figured out that they can get RICH by packing in as many houses as they can into the least amount of space, and they want an arm and a leg to do anything custom because of how much more up front work it takes.

 

[AndyG]

YES!!! You're exactly right.

There's a house two doors down from mine, being built by one of the big corporate contractors that develop an entire subdivision and fill it with maybe half a dozen different floorplans differentiated by mirroring, or different materials/colors on the elevation.

We started at the same time. Theirs is probably 500sf larger. Mine is dried in and partially roughed in. They will be in before Labor Day - house is done, they're just finishing up gutter downspouts, final grade and landscaping. The only people that are already living on the street say they've had workers there almost every day since April.

The reason is they take a manufacturing approach to the process, doing up front work to speed things up later. Work smarter, not harder. Manage projects, select and order materials up front. I'm sure they have a warehouse somewhere to store materials until they're needed.

Clearly you know all this. I wish more did. Unfortunately it seems most of the ones around here that have figured that out, also figured out that they can get RICH by packing in as many houses as they can into the least amount of space, and they want an arm and a leg to do anything custom because of how much more up front work it takes.

The upcharge for the custom is to discourage the client from creating variation- variation kills the work flow. Creates all we are talking about - oh larger crown mold , crap its out of stock, the trim guys started lot 12 yesterday, gonna be there a week, someone has to remove the smaller it got put in-

This is a zero clearance shower - decking sunk 3/4”- this is planning -we know every detail, every wall, plumbing location, and exactly the shower size- how ? We did a temp framing mock up for the client to study all weekend- you can see the pex lines coming up in the floor where the kneewall will be- so the client can open the door and turn on the water and not get wet. Insulation has to come after inspections.

All this is fine - for the contractor that schedules and budgets for it- misery for those who don’t.

 

[Daryl]

Did you say anything to them? Or just pick up after them and be upset about it?

Yes, every single time I said something. Several times they showed up while I was cleaning up their mess.

 

[AndyG]

Beam is 1 5/16” out of level and undersized-

Profit allows you to invest in the equipment to protect your self and anticipate issues.

The LVL is terribly undersized-

 

[TRE3TOP]

Yes, every single time I said something. Several times they showed up while I was cleaning up their mess.

Damn really? And nothing? Ever? Fuck… Did you pay in full upfront or something? Id be holding that check…

Or at least say oh good I’ve got it started for you, here you can finish cleaning up your mess.

 

[ranger101]

As a countertop company, we try to leave every job cleaner than when we showed up. Especially in finished homes where people are simply remodeling. This is a before and after shot of our job today. Notice you never see any tools in the “work area”, use it and put it back. Organization is the key to quicker and better quality work.

 

[AndyG]

As a countertop company, we try to leave every job cleaner than when we showed up. Especially in finished homes where people are simply remodeling. This is a before and after shot of our job today. Notice you never see any tools in the “work area”, use it and put it back. Organization is the key to quicker and better quality work.
View attachment 348335

View attachment 348336

We have a winner- This job is set up to get a tile splash- The appliances are secured and the work is meticulous-

The first thing that you notice is the company doesn’t have a bunch of rules and regulations probably as much as a simple principle- Cleaner than you found it.

Principles are timeless. They cross language barriers. They only take minutes to get the idea across.

Secondly the company knows that you don’t disrespect your own material - With some homeowners if she sees a utility knife or chisel on the countertop when the guys walk out the door she’s looking for damage- Then she starts nitpicking. Also instantly when it goes in the house it is no longer the company property - it belongs to the client. And that stuff isn’t cheap.

Also people need to remember these days the majority of the time you’re probably on camera- One evening I got a picture email to me of a painter with his foot up on a granite countertop- not cool.

I guarantee you this company operates smooth and stays busy - They are giving people the experience that they are looking for.

Gorgeous work. I built my business from being a tile setter and have had my hands on quite a bit of that material- I’ve never laid in bed one night wishing that I could carry 3/4 of a slab up stairs and try to get it in around a bunch of light switches- You guys are pros.

 

[ranger101]

Also people need to remember these days the majority of the time you’re probably on camera- One evening I got a picture email to me of a painter with his foot up on a granite countertop- not cool.

Everybody has a Ring camera somewhere these days. It’s never safe to gossip until we’re back in the truck heading home

 

[srimes]

Beam is 1 5/16” out of level and undersized-

View attachment 348305
Profit allows you to invest in the equipment to protect your self and anticipate issues.

The LVL is terribly undersized-

Spec'd wrong I take it?
Knew of a case where a new development around a golf course didn't leave clearance between lvl and the sliding back doors, and once built the doors wouldn't open. Builder tried to sue lvl manufacturer claiming the material wasn't as stiff as specified. They lost.

 

[AndyG]

View attachment 348338

Spec'd wrong I take it?
Knew of a case where a new development around a golf course didn't leave clearance between lvl and the sliding back doors, and once built the doors wouldn't open. Builder tried to sue lvl manufacturer claiming the material wasn't as stiff as specified. They lost.

I would say that they didn’t even spec it at all - Most likely the work was done with no building permit- Basically people want the least amount of build down in an area like that- I’ll probably use a steel I-beam and go up into the floor system-

We’re going to start with removing the sheet rock on both sides and just evaluating -

That is called getting laughed out of court-

You know it is an entire education just knowing where to get things tight and when to have clearance- In addition to that basically the entire concept of how America builds houses creates various loads in different places and a lot of twisting and pulling goes on-

This is a little bit of a tangent that we had a homeowner build a home in South Alabama in an area famous for instable soil- He went crazy with three-quarter inch plywood decking and he built a fortress- And during his sleep one night a section of the house just basically exploded. He had moved from out of the area and he just was convinced that he was smarter than the local people.

 

[DrDmoney]

I don't know if this is above or below average but I swept this out of just 4 main floor of my house-in-progress last week so I could power wash the concrete without all of this ending up on my face.

View attachment 348243

I'm not too worked up about the scraps, but the food and drink containers irritate me. Yet, there's no trash can on site so what are they supposed to do? I thought about putting one out there but no idea if they'd use it. And since none of the subs clean up after themselves, the GC has a line item on the budget for me to pay someone else to come in and do it.

I put my lunch trash back in my cooler, usually in one of the sandwich bags, there’s no excuse for throwing it on the ground.

 

[AndyG]

I put my lunch trash back in my cooler, usually in one of the sandwich bags, there’s no excuse for throwing it on the ground.

You know just about everything we’re talking about and gets down to behavior- And I have guys that I’ve worked for me nearly a decade and I still have to hammer on all this-

I know it would make you wonder why but I’ll tell you why- Go look at where they live. They just don’t have it in them. I’m certainly not excusing it and when they come to work they have to work to my standards not theirs- I’ve got one guy that it is just amazing- Very talented at cabinet assembly and installation- His life is essentially chaos and stays that way.
To make it worse he will stand there and tell me how to run the business...And to make it even worse than that I actually listen sometimes

 

[AndyG]

As a countertop company, we try to leave every job cleaner than when we showed up. Especially in finished homes where people are simply remodeling. This is a before and after shot of our job today. Notice you never see any tools in the “work area”, use it and put it back. Organization is the key to quicker and better quality work.
View attachment 348335

View attachment 348336

Here is another comment - referring to something he said earlier today about clients hearing things-

People , whether consciously or not, read your body language and emotions, and this cant be turned off- this means the “vibe “ you create is sensed by the client, and this needs to be controlled by the lead and workers-

Smiling faces, man that cut is just right, dead level , good job Mike , are the types of things clients need to see and overhear. Companies like counter top companies that are there 2-4 hours can come in like a precision drill team and blow clients away. People gauge how well it is going by this.


Also, people will never forget how workers made them feel.

This leads me to my next thread- How to Handle Complaints. I think some of you guys will like it , it goes back to a trade article that I wrote for a national magazine and some really good training that inspired it.

 

[Mike_H]

Oh boy...I have some comments! As some of you know, we finished a pretty major remodel of our kitchen (really the whole first floor) late last year. Our GC is great. I've known him for quite a while now and he communicates well, is up front about anything and everything, including his mark-up and he and I can have conversations about where to split work, if my wife or I want to do something ourselves. I'd consider him a friend.

We have had a couple conversations about his office manager/partner and his subs (especially his electricians). The OM is VERY slow to respond to emails/texts (forget a phone call). Kinda like @freedom_in_4low mentioned about his GC...about 75% of the information gets through the first time. Thankfully, it usually only took one reminder to get the rest. His electricians though...I would NEVER use them again. All of my switches sit crooked in their boxes. We had to call them out specifically to finish a couple of things that they "forgot." The worst was they left for the day after cutting holes for can lighting in the ceiling. I have cellulose insulation...and they didn't plug any of the holes. So, for a whole weekend, I had that shit raining down on me every time the front door got opened and shut. They also left a switch completely out, and a BARE HOT WIRE sticking out of the wall. I called the GC immediately that afternoon...well...I fixed it first, then called. I couldn't believe that. Talk about dangerous.

We had issue with our counter install too...They first tried to install the wrong sink...and they cut the counter incorrectly. Incidentally, the counter that was cut incorrectly was a full slab of quartz...that was out of production and we bought the leftover. My wife about had a coronary on that one...her whole color pallet was based on the countertop she picked out. Thankfully, they were able to get another slab (at their cost) and get it corrected.

Through all these issue though, the GC was there for us. He made us feel like we were still in control, he was going to take care of it. His guys were great too...so good that they got Christmas presents from us. Like @AndyG said, they spent the last half hour of their day cleaning up after them selves. Even throughout the day, they kept their tools picked up, and not scattered all around. They even vac'ed the garage, every day, that we let them set up in so they didn't have to work outside in the snow (or run the saws inside). That really impressed me.

 

[AndyG]

Oh boy...I have some comments! As some of you know, we finished a pretty major remodel of our kitchen (really the whole first floor) late last year. Our GC is great. I've known him for quite a while now and he communicates well, is up front about anything and everything, including his mark-up and he and I can have conversations about where to split work, if my wife or I want to do something ourselves. I'd consider him a friend.

We have had a couple conversations about his office manager/partner and his subs (especially his electricians). The OM is VERY slow to respond to emails/texts (forget a phone call). Kinda like @freedom_in_4low mentioned about his GC...about 75% of the information gets through the first time. Thankfully, it usually only took one reminder to get the rest. His electricians though...I would NEVER use them again. All of my switches sit crooked in their boxes. We had to call them out specifically to finish a couple of things that they "forgot." The worst was they left for the day after cutting holes for can lighting in the ceiling. I have cellulose insulation...and they didn't plug any of the holes. So, for a whole weekend, I had that shit raining down on me every time the front door got opened and shut. They also left a switch completely out, and a BARE HOT WIRE sticking out of the wall. I called the GC immediately that afternoon...well...I fixed it first, then called. I couldn't believe that. Talk about dangerous.

We had issue with our counter install too...They first tried to install the wrong sink...and they cut the counter incorrectly. Incidentally, the counter that was cut incorrectly was a full slab of quartz...that was out of production and we bought the leftover. My wife about had a coronary on that one...her whole color pallet was based on the countertop she picked out. Thankfully, they were able to get another slab (at their cost) and get it corrected.

Through all these issue though, the GC was there for us. He made us feel like we were still in control, he was going to take care of it. His guys were great too...so good that they got Christmas presents from us. Like @AndyG said, they spent the last half hour of their day cleaning up after them selves. Even throughout the day, they kept their tools picked up, and not scattered all around. They even vac'ed the garage, every day, that we let them set up in so they didn't have to work outside in the snow (or run the saws inside). That really impressed me.

This is actually beautiful-

Did it go perfect? Nope.

Does he love the GC and his guys ? Yep.

So how did this happen?

First, if it was so easy it would go flawless he never would have hired the guy- things rarely go perfect and this is a good gauge of who you hired. We get a lot of referrals because we don’t flinch when it comes to making something right.

Second, and this is the real deal, the contractor knows that a relationship is a like a bank account- and he deposited more in it than the subs withdrew. All relationships work this way.

Also he did something else I respect- he MADE SURE they got the job they wanted. Quality is never an accident. It takes an effort to get things right a lot of the time.