New engine: mount to transmission, starter gear ring to torque converter

[lcashmack]

2001 Wrangler: bought a rebuilt engine from Titan and are at the stage of remounting to the transmission.
Have it back in and the aligned the dowel pin from back of engine into the transmission, all lined up well, started the four main bell housing bolts. While trying to Bolt the Starter Ring Gear Plate to the torque converter, the bolts are not reaching the threads on the torque converter. the four bolts are only about 1/2" in length and the gap between the p;ate and the converter is too far for them to start. I noticed the Plate is recessed and i'm wondering if i have it backwards. If i pull the engine and flip that plate it would essentially make the mounting surface of the plate that much closer to the Converter. I can't find any diagrams or images showing this. I even have a picture from when i took it out and can't tell which way it is. Photo is looking back, you see how far my finger goes into the hole above the loose bolt. 2nd photo is looking almost straight up from the floor to the back of the crankshaft where the plate meets the crank. Same photo also shows the bolt that is no longer long enough to reach the converter, even all the way in. highlighted the direction of the emboss to help me clarify if i have that right. If it is right, Does the Torque converter shift forward somehow?

 

[TJ Jim]

Do you already have the tranny to engine bolts tightened down? And next did you have to tighten the tranny to engine bolts to get the two to seat?

 

[lcashmack]

Do you already have the tranny to engine bolts tightened down? And next did you have to tighten the tranny to engine bolts to get the two to seat?

HI, I got them in and cinched them up enough to remove the gap between housing and engine block. then back off a 1/2 turn. Was thinking the same thing. They seated together pretty easily.

 

[TJ Jim]

I haven’t done an auto in a Jeep only chevys and dodges. The converters I’ve done require a three step install. As you turn the converter you’ll feel three steps in as you push in and rotate.

 

[lcashmack]

Photo showing the blown engine out prior to removing the Starter Ring and plate. Still can't quite tell the emboss orientation in this photo either.

 

[OldBuzzard]

It looks like the ring gear will move toward front/back a significant amount depending on which way you install it. Can you eyeball the starter to see where the ring gear has been running against the starter gear?

 

[KennethS]

I haven’t done an auto in a Jeep only chevys and dodges. The converters I’ve done require a three step install. As you turn the converter you’ll feel three steps in as you push in and rotate.

Same here. And on the engines I have worked on, the bolt holes in the crank flange and flex plate are slightly offset so the flex plate can bolt on only one way, so it can’t be bolted on backwards. I have no idea if the Jeep is the same way.

 

[lcashmack]

Reply to: "Can you eyeball the starter to see where the ring gear has been running against the starter gear?"
That is a great idea. I just did some rough eyeball and scale measuring of the Starter, Got the little starter gear to extend all the way out. Gear ring from the same Datum and it appears to match up. Meaning if the starter was on, it would extend about the proper distance to meet the ring gear in approximately the same place as before based on witness and wear marks. Additionally, I noticed some witness on the Ring gear itself where there is wear and no-wear (rust), which also indicates it is on orientation as when pulled.

So why is torque converter beyond the reach of the bolts. Gonna contact Titan on Monday and see if they have any hints. I tried also to get the torque converter to slide forward to meet up with the start ring, it wouldn't budge. was hoping it maybe it had allowance or play in it and just needed to slide forward to meet the ring.

 

[hear]

In bolting things up, the TC may come forward a smidge but not the difference between threading in & not.

Since you’re going to have to pull the trans back regardless, see if the old TC has the same issue. Maybe the bolt pads are thinner, or maybe it’s the wrong TC?

You don’t have to take the engine out to remove the flex plate though. I’m wondering if there are witness marks for the where the TC bolts used to be?

 

[KennethS]

I’m wondering if there are witness marks for the where the TC bolts used to be?

I was thinking the same. May also be marks for the crank flange bolts, and even evidence of which side of the flex plate was contacting the crank flange.

 

[lcashmack]

Holy Shnickies!! Got impatient and went out and pulled the again. Here's what i learned. The Starter Ring is wedled to the Deep Drawn pan, im calling the Cranshaft Position Plate, due to the square holes in the side wall for the position sensor. I CAN'T flip the part around because everything would be backwards. So the orientation was correct. I'm calling it the Starter ring gear and the Crankshaft position pan welded together, the "Starter Ring Gear and Crankshaft Position Pan Weldment".
So why didn't the Plate and TQ get close enough for those 4 short bolts. I thought the TQ was fairly stationary. SO i tested that theory and it cam right out. Slid right of the spline shaft going into the transmission. So then i took just the TQ and placed it up against the Starter Ring Gear weldment in the back of the engine, and low and behold they're close enough for the bolts to engage properly. I had no idea the TQ could move so freely. I'm hoping this is normal and not another problem to deal with later.
Photos show the Ring gear and plate weldment, with shim, together and proper orientation. As well as TQ out of the tranny.


**I think the Weldment i keep discussing is simply called a flexplate. As i was reading other posts today, i see they are having a lineup issue, which allows me to check that again before dropping the engine in again.

 

[KennethS]

The converters I’ve done require a three step install. As you turn the converter you’ll feel three steps in as you push in and rotate.

Take note of this when reinstalling the torque converter into the transmission.

 

[lcashmack]

Take note of this when reinstalling the torque converter into the transmission.

I don't quite understand what that means. It sounds like there is a push in and turn, push a little more and turn type of procedure. It slid all the way in, at least i think it did when i put it back. I'll read around see what i can find. Thanks.

 

[hear]

The FSM shows how to take a measurement to see if it’s set in, but it’s basically like 1/2” behind the plane of the bellhousing. Once it’s in it shouldn’t just fall right out. Usually takes a decent amount of effort to pull it back out.

Glad you figured out it was called the flex plate. I didn’t know 100% if the tone ring piece was separate or not, but I guess we know now.

As long as we’re talking about it, please lube up the TC about & the pump seal before you mate them, or else you’re gonna be doing all this again.

 

[OldBuzzard]

I don't quite understand what that means. It sounds like there is a push in and turn, push a little more and turn type of procedure. It slid all the way in, at least i think it did when i put it back. I'll read around see what i can find. Thanks.

I'm about 50 years rusty since I did this, but here goes anyway:

The torque converter has to align, internally, on the first splined shaft, and then on the second splined shaft, and then on the flats/slots. As you slide it in, you may have to turn it at 3 different places.

 

[hear]

I don't quite understand what that means. It sounds like there is a push in and turn, push a little more and turn type of procedure. It slid all the way in, at least i think it did when i put it back. I'll read around see what i can find. Thanks.

Just push, rotate, jostle, & finagle until you feel it drop into all the spots.

Remember to lube it up first.*


* also applies to torque converters

 

[lcashmack]

One final update. Was able to get the TQ to insert properly. I now understand teh "3 steps" to install/insert. Step one the first smaller spline, Step 2 the lager spline, step 3 the flats on the shaft lining up.
Once the engine was back in and tightened up mostly, the TQ was still a bit to far back. To get it to come forward easily, i bought a bolt same thread and pitch, but longer, put it in and gently pulled the TQ forward to meet the flex plate, Slid forward with almost no effort, about 3/16" of movement forward, and then everything lined right up.....