Residential electrical issue with installing solar

mrblaine

mrblaine

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Quail Valley, CA
We are investigating solar due to ever increasing prices from our grid supplier. We had a few folks come out to discuss install, price and methodology. I'm being told that they won't touch it after 2 things happen, the first is they look at the transfer switch for the whole house back up generator, the second is they ask if it is a permitted and signed off installation. I tell them yes, fully permitted, inspected, and signed off by the city. We aren't touching it because they are using the automatic transfer switch as a critical load center and you can't do it that way?

Okay, how is it supposed to be done? Not like that. That doesn't help me. They brought the main wires to the panel main breakers into the transfer switch. Okay, how are you supposed to do it. Don't know, we won't touch it.

So, my questions are how it is supposed to be done explained in terms an idiot can understand. What are they telling me other than they won't touch it?
 
Mike_H said:
https://news.energysage.com/what-are-critical-load-panels/

You’ve probably googled already, but I really don’t know WTF the electrician is talking about now. You don’t even have a critical load panel.
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WTF? Had he said that a critical load panel functions the same as a load management center in an ambulance, then I would have been able to call him on his BS. The LMC in an ambulance has voltage thresholds that start dropping out loads based on priority to maintain the critical ones as the batteries run lower and lower. The main difference is you only hook up the loads to the critical load panel that are of the highest priority. Fucking goober.
 
I will assume from the comments by the solar guys that batteries were not part of the equation?
 
mrblaine said:
Not only not part but adamantly insisted that batteries were not a good idea for our part of the world.
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they aren't? Ummm...why because you have 300 days of shunshine a year? That's all well and good, but what about nighttime? You're not going to have a brownout at night?

I think its time to
A) find a new contractor
B) start learning about solar yourself and DIY it.

Personally, having talked to a few people who have investigated alternative energy solutions in my neck of the woods, finding a good contractor seems to be a tough row to hoe. Most seem like fly by night shiester's and give the same bull you've experienced. They can't come in, slap something on your house in 8 hours and charge you 25,000 for it...because you're not the typical use case. They would actually have to apply some thought and work on some design...and they don't have a cost model for that.
 
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Mike_H said:
they aren't? Ummm...why because you have 300 days of shunshine a year? That's all well and good, but what about nighttime? You're not going to have a brownout at night?

I think its time to
A) find a new contractor
B) start learning about solar yourself and DIY it.

Personally, having talked to a few people who have investigated alternative energy solutions in my neck of the woods, finding a good contractor seems to be a tough row to hoe. Most seem like fly by night shiester's and give the same bull you've experienced. They can't come in, slap something on your house in 8 hours and charge you 25,000 for it...because you're not the typical use case. They would actually have to apply some thought and work on some design...and they don't have a cost model for that.
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I think a bunch of it has to do with the old rules for net metering and what they "paid" you for excess power back into the grid. All of our utilities are moving to time of use and dramatically lowering the credit per kwh. Currently we pay around .30 per kwh and they will soon start to credit .04 per kwh.

The biggest issue with battery is expense and ROI. It would add roughly 15 grand to our install and I'm at the ragged edge of what I will spend right now and don't want to add 25% to that.

Ya'll city dwellers have it easier. I'm 100% electric. I have no option for propane or natural gas.

I do not have a contractor.
I am looking for one that makes sense.
I do not have time to DIY or the patience to figure it out.

I was discussing how the install will go and my particulars. Oh, if you are worried about roof penetrations, (I am) then we can do a ballasted system. Ballasted, what the fuck is that? Oh, basically just sandbags or weights on the racks. Oh hell no. You walk on that flat roof and feel it bounce if you don't walk lightly? No, well pay attention to that next time you're up there skippy because you ain't sandbagging my already skimpy roof trusses.

I do suspect that this relationship was not long for this world when I asked how they planned on bring the power run from inside the parapet wall down to the main panel. Oh that's easy, they will set a box at the bottom, run conduit up, over the parapet, down the roof and punch through right above the main panel.

So you mean they will run it surface mounted on the roof and punch through the patio cover? Yes.

How about fuck no? Get a roofer out here, punch through the parapet inner vertical wall with a flashing, then you're inside the attic and can drop down right to the panel through the soffit which is 3/8" ply. Total conduit run will be 1/6 if you run it full distance and I not sure you have to have conduit in the attic, do you?
 
mrblaine said:
I think a bunch of it has to do with the old rules for net metering and what they "paid" you for excess power back into the grid. All of our utilities are moving to time of use and dramatically lowering the credit per kwh. Currently we pay around .30 per kwh and they will soon start to credit .04 per kwh.

The biggest issue with battery is expense and ROI. It would add roughly 15 grand to our install and I'm at the ragged edge of what I will spend right now and don't want to add 25% to that.

Ya'll city dwellers have it easier. I'm 100% electric. I have no option for propane or natural gas.

I do not have a contractor.
I am looking for one that makes sense.
I do not have time to DIY or the patience to figure it out.

I was discussing how the install will go and my particulars. Oh, if you are worried about roof penetrations, (I am) then we can do a ballasted system. Ballasted, what the fuck is that? Oh, basically just sandbags or weights on the racks. Oh hell no. You walk on that flat roof and feel it bounce if you don't walk lightly? No, well pay attention to that next time you're up there skippy because you ain't sandbagging my already skimpy roof trusses.

I do suspect that this relationship was not long for this world when I asked how they planned on bring the power run from inside the parapet wall down to the main panel. Oh that's easy, they will set a box at the bottom, run conduit up, over the parapet, down the roof and punch through right above the main panel.

So you mean they will run it surface mounted on the roof and punch through the patio cover? Yes.

How about fuck no? Get a roofer out here, punch through the parapet inner vertical wall with a flashing, then you're inside the attic and can drop down right to the panel through the soffit which is 3/8" ply. Total conduit run will be 1/6 if you run it full distance and I not sure you have to have conduit in the attic, do you?
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Lol, I’ve never been called a city dweller before! I grew up rural, but that has a different meaning in the Midwest. Surprised you don’t have a propane option though. Here, every little town with a post office and a bar has a propane supplier. Then again, our heating requirements are vastly different than yours. If people exclusively used electricity to heat here, we’d be in a whole different world.
 
Mike_H said:
Lol, I’ve never been called a city dweller before! I grew up rural, but that has a different meaning in the Midwest. Surprised you don’t have a propane option though. Here, every little town with a post office and a bar has a propane supplier. Then again, our heating requirements are vastly different than yours. If people exclusively used electricity to heat here, we’d be in a whole different world.
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I have the option of adding propane for the heat, water heater, and cooking. I don't have the motivation to do so. The house was built all electric. The BS involved in plumbing it for propane is painful and then you get to pay for propane. I'm already sad with what I pay for the generator, I can't fathom what that would cost for the rest. Propane here is only slightly better than electricity cost wise.

I also grew up rural on our own well, propane, and grid power. But everyone had propane and it was cost effective.
 
I'm no expert but I believe batteries are most needed for off-grid installations.

Would you consider a manual switch from grid/solar to/from generator?
 
g.hayduke said:
I'm no expert but I believe batteries are most needed for off-grid installations.
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Typically that used to be true, nowadays not so much. They are pushing them pretty hard in a lot of residential solar installs.
g.hayduke said:
Would you consider a manual switch from grid/solar to/from generator?
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Not under any circumstances. Our power is too sketchy for that to be an option given that we depend on full time power to keep Kat going. Thus, it has to be an automatic transfer switch.

Before the generator, we had outages at least once a month and I'm not a fan of moving her into the camper and running the AC in that off of the generator to keep her comfortable. Then there is the issue of moving the CPAP around if the outage lasts.

Of course, now that we have the generator, we have had exactly one unplanned outage in the last 2 years. If I were to move to a manual switch, it would go back to once every month or two.
 
For solar array attachment, we install U-Anchors on our flat roofs for solar installs. We don’t handle the solar installs, just the roofing under them. We use the one appropriate for roofing type, ie. TPO, EPDM, mod bit etc. They enable us to maintain a Carlisle roofing systems warranty as well.
https://www.anchorp.com/u-anchors/amp/
 
taylormade73 said:
For solar array attachment, we install U-Anchors on our flat roofs for solar installs. We don’t handle the solar installs, just the roofing under them. We use the one appropriate for roofing type, ie. TPO, EPDM, mod bit etc. They enable us to maintain a Carlisle roofing systems warranty as well.
https://www.anchorp.com/u-anchors/amp/
Click to expand...

All I know is you are not going to use a bunch of fucking rocks to hold down the array. He did say he wanted to add additional panels to the front roof slope. He pointed at it. I then pointed at the ground where there is practically zero access since there is a rock garden sloped and a set of shitty poured in place stairs that go from the upper to lower driveway right under that part of the roof. The roof is 8 and 12 so you ain't walking on it, no place to put a ladder and the only answer is a boom lift.

We don't have a boom lift. Well then, you ain't putting panels there are you?
 
mrblaine said:
According to that, it doesn't seem like solving that problem would be difficult enough to just walk away.
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It is a little more complicated than simply backfeeding a breaker. Maybe they didn't plan to use licensed electricians or involve the electrical inspector.
 
mrblaine said:
Not only not part but adamantly insisted that batteries were not a good idea for our part of the world.
Click to expand...

Yeah and batteries in the Arctic or Australian outback are? Anyone who says that are imbeciles.

Local alternative power guy here did solar/generator with grid tie in all the time but batteries were always in the equation.
 
Blaine,
Having met all of the morons who know little or nothing about brakes in your area of expertise, why would you think this area of electric power would be any different? Most electricians have no formal training outside of high school and (maybe) an apprenticeship, where they learn nothing about solar power, transfer switching, backfeed breakers, or solar inverter phasing with standby generators. I have an advanced degree in electrical engineering and know nothing about this topic. Most of this data would come from the various manufacturers of the components involved. I would call the generator manufacturer and the solar inverter manufacturer and ask them how they recommend connecting their parts in your desired system. Also, if you have the room, consider putting the panels on stands instead of on your roof.
Good luck!
 
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