Standby residential genset installer questions

[mrblaine]

Do we have anyone on here that is familiar? We've decided we need one. Propane, 22kw, 200 amp transfer switch. Proximity to main breaker panel is sub 30 feet wire run, 10 feet physical. Proximity to propane tank is sub 20 feet.

The Generac 22kw with transfer switch is all over the internet for sub 6 grand delivered.

They are telling me installed prices are in the 16-20,000 dollar range. I'm trying to figure out where that money is going?

 

[Chris]

If it's anything like air conditioning installs, I know where the money is going, to hugely inflated profit margins. My buddy is an HVAC guy so I hear all about that.

Are you preparing for the rolling blackouts California is dealing with? If so, I can't say I blame you one bit.

 

[mrblaine]

If it's anything like air conditioning installs, I know where the money is going, to hugely inflated profit margins. My buddy is an HVAC guy so I hear all about that.

Are you preparing for the rolling blackouts California is dealing with? If so, I can't say I blame you one bit.

We had our AC redone several years ago. New package unit craned up onto the roof, all new duct work in the attic, all new registers, new plenum and roof work done, better SEER, more efficient 4 ton, new return air duct and plenum with register and it was sub 14 grand with a 5 year service contract included. There is no fucking way that there is that much work in a standby genset.

 

[Chris]

We had our AC redone several years ago. New package unit craned up onto the roof, all new duct work in the attic, all new registers, new plenum and roof work done, better SEER, more efficient 4 ton, new return air duct and plenum with register and it was sub 14 grand with a 5 year service contract included. There is no fucking way that there is that much work in a standby genset.

Wow, what the fuck!?

In Oregon on our 1700 square foot house (which was already setup for central air) they wanted to charge us 8k to install an A/C unit.

I called up my HVAC friend who said he would do it under the table for me. He did the entire install including parts for $2500.

I asked him why the prices were so high from other guys, and he told me that the markup on those HVAC units is absolutely absurd.

So circling back to your situation, I'm wondering just how much they have the generator marked up?

If they aren't marking it up that much, maybe their hourly rate is $1000 an hour?

 

[mrblaine]

Wow, what the fuck!?

In Oregon on our 1700 square foot house (which was already setup for central air) they wanted to charge us 8k to install an A/C unit.

I called up my HVAC friend who said he would do it under the table for me. He did the entire install including parts for $2500.

I asked him why the prices were so high from other guys, and he told me that the markup on those HVAC units is absolutely absurd.

So circling back to your situation, I'm wondering just how much they have the generator marked up?

If they aren't marking it up that much, maybe their hourly rate is $1000 an hour?

Your buddy would not have crawled around in my attic replacing all the duct work for much less than we paid. It was July, temps were up there, more so in the attic and we did the buddy thing, with 3 different buddies.

Across the board they all said they would do it, take care of us, and get it handled.

We said go in February so it could be done when the weather was tolerable. All 3 of them jerked us around with bullshit until it got to the point where we had to kick them to the curb and go the conventional route.

We got quotes and estimates from several. All of them except one were bullshit. One language challenged individual gave a quote, I requested an email for comparison, it came in Spanish. I requested it again in some other language, finally got it in very poor English. Part number was wrong for the package unit, requested the right one, it came in Spanish. Pointed that out, got it in English but still the wrong unit, pointed that out and was told it was the same as the one we were getting but different. No, that's not how it works.

Finally picked the actual professionals who did a professional job and have not missed one iota of anything they said they would do when they say they will do it. That level of professionalism came with about a 4 grand premium, but that has been worth it.

 

[jeffmarion]

When we built our house 3 years ago and asked the builder about a backup generator, he told us that they were approximately 20K installed, so we decided against it since we were way over budget already. So 16-20K seems about right. But why does it cost 10-15G to install?!?

 

[mrblaine]

When we built our house 3 years ago and asked the builder about a backup generator, he told us that they were approximately 20K installed, so we decided against it since we were way over budget already. So 16-20K seems about right. But why does it cost 10-15G to install?!?

That's my question. The Generac 22kw is all over the place for sub 6 grand delivered. Add in a car battery to start the thing for 150 and 16-20g starts to look pretty stupid.

I asked and they implied there was wages, tools, wiring and a concrete pad involved. Yeah, so? Still not seeing it.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Some of it could be permits and other government required expenses. You're in California, after all. Probably have to do an environmental impact study to see what native creatures might be displaced or otherwise impacted by the new gas and power lines as well as the propane exhaust.

You're also dealing with multiple trades and a GC who will all be adding in their own profit margin before getting to the total.

So yes, I agree it's ridiculous, but I'm not that surprised. This is why I pretty much do everything myself, except roofing, because that's not a job that can be stretched out over several weeks and I can't stand heights.

 

[mrblaine]

Some of it could be permits and other government required expenses. You're in California, after all. Probably have to do an environmental impact study to see what native creatures might be displaced or otherwise impacted by the new gas and power lines as well as the propane exhaust.

And if I ask why the rough estimate is so fucking high, then that is what you tell me. They didn't.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

And if I ask why the rough estimate is so fucking high, then that is what you tell me. They didn't.

agreed. I wasn't clear from your first post whether "they" were contractors or just people that have had it done.

It's likely just excessive contractor markup.

Are you allowed to install it as a homeowner or are there certain aspects of the job that make you uncomfortable with doing it yourself, or just other ways you'd rather spend your time? I bet you could save some $$$ by GC'ing it yourself and just bringing in a concrete guy for the pad, a plumber for the gas line and an electrician for the wiring, or doing some subset of that work yourself and hiring out the parts you don't want to deal with. The biggest problem you might have with that approach is finding subs that want to take a job that small and don't quote high just to make it worth their time (which may also be part of what's going on here).

 

[Farmergreg]

5 years ago I bought a standby generator 20/22KW with transfer switch for south of $5K at a home center.
We heat with propane and own our tanks. I don’t think it cost over $500 to finish the install.
the wiring runs were only about 6 feet, the gas line was around 15’.
We located it at the distribution point for the outbuildings so they would have power, and didn’t wire up any of the load shedding circuits on the transfer switch.
Indiana, self install, no permits required.

Added the concrete pad is about 3x5...small enough to do with bags and a mixer.

 

[InOmaha]

I don't see where the money is going either. On most repairs for home or vehicle, I assume it's half labor/half parts (with markup). But plumbing and electrical runs more toward the labor side than parts. Even that would put you at closer to $10-12,000 range.

Usually the transfer switch is the back feed prevention. Maybe the local utility has something special they need added to the system for back feed protection above the typical that would require an electrician to rewire the entire current setup.

I know a lot of Californians were surprised when their grid tied solar systems shut off when the power went out. There are additional steps needed to isolate the system from the grid that are more expensive and they chose to just use and inverter with net metering.

 

[mrblaine]

I don't see where the money is going either. On most repairs for home or vehicle, I assume it's half labor/half parts (with markup). But plumbing and electrical runs more toward the labor side than parts. Even that would put you at closer to $10-12,000 range.

Usually the transfer switch is the back feed prevention. Maybe the local utility has something special they need added to the system for back feed protection above the typical that would require an electrician to rewire the entire current setup.

That's about my number. There can't possibly be that much extra.

 

[gaabbee]

I'm going through the same thing with my A/C. Company wants over 10g while I can buy the unit for 3g. @mrblaine I would call a general electrician and get a quote for wiring only. Same to run a propane line and go from there.

 

[Rick Flair]

Electricians don’t like to dig. If you run the lines, many will come out and finish the hook ups at the box. Same with the propane lines. It’s easy to rent a trencher and run lines. That is labor those guys feel is beneath their trade, so quotes are marked up to cover that aspect.

pad is easy to pour, like said bags and mixer. This can be all done in a few days going easy at it. Order genset, hire out the finish work.

 

[bobthetj03]

My FIL had one installed 2 years ago. 22KW Generac. You have to register the unit with the power company. Not sure the cost of that. He was all in for about $14K.

 

[TurboTJ]

We looked into getting a generator about a year ago. Due to code requirements it was going to be very difficult to get it approved. We switched gears and installed solar with a battery. The capacity is minimal but it will keep the lights, furnace, refrigerator, computers and a few other things on for a couple of cloudy days or indefinitely with sunny days. It cost about the same as a generator but in our town the inspectors are much more solar/battery friendly.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

so what are you guys preparing for? I have a $400 3.5kW from O'Reilly's that I use for extended temporary outages (like long enough that my frozen food would thaw); to justify multiple thousands of dollars I would think I'd need that type of outage on a biweekly basis. I built a 50' cord to backfeed 220V into my drier outlet and open my main breaker so it doesn't backfeed the grid. I don't ask it to run every appliance I own all at the same time, but it'll run my furnace fan, keep my food cold and if I need to use my oven I just unplug the freezer and turn the refrigerator and furnace off. Everything else is gas and I don't have AC.

It isn't super convenient, but I haven't had an outage last more than 4 hours since the 8 days in 2007 that caused me to put this setup together so it's not inconvenient enough to buy a $5k generator let alone another $10k to install it.

 

[mrblaine]

so what are you guys preparing for? I have a $400 3.5kW from O'Reilly's that I use for extended temporary outages (like long enough that my frozen food would thaw); to justify multiple thousands of dollars I would think I'd need that type of outage on a biweekly basis. I built a 50' cord to backfeed 220V into my drier outlet and open my main breaker so it doesn't backfeed the grid. I don't ask it to run every appliance I own all at the same time, but it'll run my furnace fan, keep my food cold and if I need to use my oven I just unplug the freezer and turn the refrigerator and furnace off. Everything else is gas and I don't have AC.

It isn't super convenient, but I haven't had an outage last more than 4 hours since the 8 days in 2007 that caused me to put this setup together so it's not inconvenient enough to buy a $5k generator let alone another $10k to install it.

We have an outage an average of 2 times per month. It can be as frequent as 1 time a week. We are full electric, semi-rural. No option of natural gas, only propane. AC is mandatory, computers to run things are mandatory. Kat has some medical that requires electricity. Electric bill runs 250ish per month.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

We have an outage an average of 2 times per month. It can be as frequent as 1 time a week. We are full electric, semi-rural. No option of natural gas, only propane. AC is mandatory, computers to run things are mandatory. Kat has some medical that requires electricity. Electric bill runs 250ish per month.

yikes. Yeah sounds like you need something you don't have to drag out of the corner of a garage every time you use it.