True Johnny Joint vs Generic 'Flex Joint'

Fargo

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As you may know from comments i have made in other threads, I am looking at control arms and I am really torn between a lift with Johnny Joints vs DDB bushings. But for the sake of this discussion, lets talk only about Johnny Joints versus other knock off flex joints. What makes a Johnny Joint better? Looking at pictures they seem to be a pretty simple design. Its just a metal ball inside a plastic housing. But what separates Currie from the others. Lets see if we can break this into two parts.

1) In what ways is the Currie Johnny Joint better? Is it better in performance? Is it quieter? Does it last longer? What are the problems seen in other joints?

2) Why is the JJ better. Is it material choice, factory quality control, design tollerances, or something else?

To sum things up, what does Currie do right and what is everyone else doing wrong?
 
The problem with the vast majority is very basic. Knowledge does not equal understanding. Just because you can see something, pay someone to knock it off, and then bring it to market at a lower price point, does not make it the same. It only looks the same.

John hit all the right criteria. The urethane is soft enough to isolate, hard enough to provide control and durability. The joint width is as wide as possible to get the most amount of surface area in the races and bearing surfaces and still give a more than ample amount of misalignment. (pay very close attention to that part)

The ball is heat treated and not polished. Folks will hold that up as a down side by showing off their polished balls. What they miss is the polished balls don't carry lubrication in the small imperfections and they over heat because the urethane is also smooth and neither hold the grease in place. It just gets pushed out of the joint interface.

The washers are heat treated and robust. They need to be due to the compression on the urethane to hold the ball in place. Another key point is the fit of the race inside the barrel and around the ball. It is very tight and it one of the keys to noise, durability, and control.

The body is a one piece forging for most of them and while not a key attribute to functional durability, it is more desirable than a welded shank to the body.
 
Wow, smaller details on every point than I was considering. But I can see a benefit to each of the points you made. Thank you.
 
Great explanation. To look at JJ's from a different angle, they simply work with minimal fuss and they hold up. Mine are over ten years old, there has been nothing done to them over the years other than having been greased a couple times yet they're still tight, quiet, and working as designed.
 
Wow, smaller details on every point than I was considering. But I can see a benefit to each of the points you made. Thank you.
The key to a great product is almost always in the small details that knowledge instead of understanding doesn't produce. Looks like a JJ, moves like a JJ, goes together like a JJ, but that does not a JJ make.
 
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Great explanation. To look at JJ's from a different angle, they simply work with minimal fuss and they hold up. Mine are over ten years old, there has been nothing done to them over the years other than having been greased a couple times yet they're still tight, quiet, and working as designed.
You bring up a good point. There are few products out there that you can look at after any lengthy interval of use and state they work as good today as they did when they were installed, very few. The JJ is one.
 
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... Mine are over ten years old, there has been nothing done to them over the years other than having been greased a couple times yet they're still tight, quiet, and working as designed.

How often should they be greased? One of the big advantages I see of DDB is that they are maintenance free. Do you grease both the bolt and the housing zerk or just pick one?
 
How often should they be greased? One of the big advantages I see of DDB is that they are maintenance free. Do you grease both the bolt and the housing zerk or just pick one?
It’s my understanding that some Johnny joints accept grease through the bolt, others a zerk. Not sure the difference but I’m sure @mrblaine will clarify that one. I hesitate to say “maintenance free” is advantageous - usualy parts that don’t require the occasional greasing or refreshing are compromising something for that benefit. Don’t know the extreme details of DDB that makes them that way so I can’t comment on pros and cons but like Jerry said, 10 years sounds pretty maintenance free to me considering the abuse those joints go through!
 
The ball is heat treated and not polished. Folks will hold that up as a down side by showing off their polished balls.

I've never even thought about polished balls. FWIW I don't think my wife has either.:LOL:


One of the big advantages I see of DDB is that they are maintenance free.

Maintenance free is really just extra time saved to end up spending more money and extra time later.
 
I've been thinking about my maintence free comment all day. As much as I'm drawn to maintenance free, I agree it usually comes at a cost. I believe the DDB uses Teflon to achieve this. But how long does Teflon last when it's running against a bare steel sleeve.... If it's that easy Currie could put a layer of Teflon on the JJ as well and it too would be maintence free... Maybe they should if it's so tight for grease.
 
I've been thinking about my maintence free comment all day. As much as I'm drawn to maintenance free, I agree it usually comes at a cost. I believe the DDB uses Teflon to achieve this. But how long does Teflon last when it's running against a bare steel sleeve.... If it's that easy Currie could put a layer of Teflon on the JJ as well and it too would be maintence free... Maybe they should if it's so tight for grease.
You can't get the compression on a Teflon liner that you can get on urethane. As soon as you get any wear whatsoever, the joint needs to be rebuilt or tightened up to remove the slop. And it is the same thing over and over, folks trying to build a better mouse trap and it is very hard to do and get correct.

As a comparison, I'll give you what we know of the JJ in race conditions which are brutal. The ones on the Savvy TJ Unlimited were on there for two seasons, 10 races, countless miles of pre-running. They were never replaced or rebuilt. Another well known joint in the same exact conditions doesn't last a whole race. They have to be swapped out after a session of pre-running.
 
Thank you Mr Blaine. I knew there was something. In the back of my mind I kept thinking about compression too. Not not necessarily from a compression standpoint, but more from a gapping standpoint. If that Teflon joint ever gets dust between the teflon and the sleeve I suspect it will peel off like using a metal spatula on a teflon frying pan. But its hard to imagine that kind of impact or misalignment on a vehicle that is street driven 90% of the time. No question, for the abuse of high speed offroad racing, I would prefer a true Johnny Joint. I still wonder though if their is a place for the DDB in more overland type of vehicles.

I wish I lived near you so I could take your test mule for a drive when you try different arms and joints on it. It must be quite interesting to see how the vehicle dynamics change as you move from Clevite to JJ to DDB. Your likely the only one who could provide any insight on how the different joints compare on the same vehicle.

A quick side question. Have you ever noticed a NVH difference between aluminum arms vs steel arms. I was just wondering if a solid aluminum arm would have a different frequency or absorb vibrations and impacts differently than a steel arm. Any harmonic or frequency issues are probably all absorbed by the isolation provided by the urethane in the joint, but I was just wondering how the material of the arm itself plays into things. I'm probably overthinking it again. It seems reasonable, yet hard to imagine that arm material would make a noticeable difference.
 
I can tell you I don’t have the expertise any of the guys on here do. However, I know what quality is and Currie and the JJ are serious quality. Took my wife out in the Jeep and she was speechless due to the significant change in my Jeep after Currie arm and steering install. If I know what I know now I’d have paid more for them if asked.
 
I found an extensive read from “sundowner” on another forum that might shed some light on the truth of a DDB. The thread refers to the infomercial put out on DDB by synergy. It’s long but a good read if you’re interested!

“I've seen the video; actually, the video was the first thing I saw...and although it tells us a number or two and bit about what's going on inside (the graphics in the video are how I knew that the outer layer of material had a narrowed, tapered-in design before seeing the picture you posted) it really doesn't do a lot to explain the rationale behind the design and workings of the joint...nor would I expect it to do so. Most people don't care about the how and why of things; they want to know if any given product will make their rig "better" and they want to know how much it will cost...so most product videos are designed with those goals in mind. I actually have to give this video a lot of credit, though, because even though it didn't answer my personal questions it also 1) made no comparisons to other products and 2) gave no assessments as to performance...both of which would be exceptionally hard to prove or back up with valid data. The video is a simplistic overview that basically says "We build good stuff, and here's a new dingus that we've built; it misaligns pretty well and rotates freely, so check it out"...and while I appreciate them not making a product-comparison video I'd also like to know why they've designed the joint as they have. In no particular order of importance, here's what I've gleaned from watching the video a couple of times:

- As always, the joint housing determines the misalignment capacity; here, the joint sleeve doesn't look to have been trimmed down very much (or at all) in width, so the full size/strength of the housing can be utilized. Because this joint has a sleeve around its bushing material and because that sleeve fits into a joint housing, however, the overall diameter of the bushing material has to be somewhat reduced to take the thickness of the outer sleeve into account.

- They're splitting the two necessary directions of movement in the joint - rotation and misalignment - between two different materials, each of which is designed to handle only one of those forces. This isn't a necessarily a bad idea, but since the available real-estate inside a joint is finite it does mean that there's physically less of each material present...so the question becomes one of how much work each material is supposed to do, and whether or not that amount of work can be handled by each individual material over time. I think this question will be basically impossible to answer without knowing some numbers on the composition of the material, and there's no way we're going to get those.

- The inner layer is a bearing surface for the central sleeve, and the outer layer is said to provide "cushion and flex" which means that in addition to handling the misalignment this layer is supposed to be a vibration damper. Since the inner layer doesn't provide much in the way of flexibility, all of the joint's misalignment and/or damping (which isn't really very important at all) comes from the outer layer. The "relief cuts" in the outer layer - those being the tapered sections that form the narrowed center of the material - are there to facilitate or allow compression and/or extension of the material...and this tells us that although the material might move or flex easily, it still needs a specific shape in order to accomplish the amount of flexing that they're designing into the joint. More specifically, the material is not so soft as to not need the relieved areas at the sides of its cross-section.

- Although I haven't found any likely-very-easy-to-find-if-I'd-just-look-in-the-right-place installation instructions, it's clear that these joints are designed to be pressed into place; the steel or nylon sleeves have no provision for retention and the housings that they're designed to work with have no provisions for retention either...so that tells us (duh...) that these are not rebuildable in any way, shape or form. If you f*** one up you replace it, just like you would a Clevite bushing. To that end, the bushing in question cannot be designed to compete with the rebuildable options from a host of other manufacturers...and as it says in the description on Synergy's website, these are a replacement for Clevite bushings. Thus, if we're going to make any comparisons we're going to have to compare them to a Clevite.”
 
I found an extensive read from “sundowner” on another forum that might shed some light on the truth of a DDB. The thread refers to the infomercial put out on DDB by synergy. It’s long but a good read if you’re interested!


- Although I haven't found any likely-very-easy-to-find-if-I'd-just-look-in-the-right-place installation instructions, it's clear that these joints are designed to be pressed into place; the steel or nylon sleeves have no provision for retention and the housings that they're designed to work with have no provisions for retention either...so that tells us (duh...) that these are not rebuildable in any way, shape or form. If you f*** one up you replace it, just like you would a Clevite bushing. To that end, the bushing in question cannot be designed to compete with the rebuildable options from a host of other manufacturers...and as it says in the description on Synergy's website, these are a replacement for Clevite bushings. Thus, if we're going to make any comparisons we're going to have to compare them to a Clevite.”

There are a couple problems with part of that statement. The DDB was specifically designed to compete with serviceable options by offering a non serviceable one. Yes it presses into end rings like a Clevite bushing but it allows similar misalignment to that of a JJ so why would you compare it to a Clevite?. When Synergy first released the DDB it was just replacing the Clevite in their product as they did not have forged ends available to use the DDB in place of a JJ. Most all their current offerings now use a DDB on both ends.
 
Thank you Mr Blaine. I knew there was something. In the back of my mind I kept thinking about compression too. Not not necessarily from a compression standpoint, but more from a gapping standpoint. If that Teflon joint ever gets dust between the teflon and the sleeve I suspect it will peel off like using a metal spatula on a teflon frying pan. But its hard to imagine that kind of impact or misalignment on a vehicle that is street driven 90% of the time. No question, for the abuse of high speed offroad racing, I would prefer a true Johnny Joint. I still wonder though if their is a place for the DDB in more overland type of vehicles.

I wish I lived near you so I could take your test mule for a drive when you try different arms and joints on it. It must be quite interesting to see how the vehicle dynamics change as you move from Clevite to JJ to DDB. Your likely the only one who could provide any insight on how the different joints compare on the same vehicle.

A quick side question. Have you ever noticed a NVH difference between aluminum arms vs steel arms. I was just wondering if a solid aluminum arm would have a different frequency or absorb vibrations and impacts differently than a steel arm. Any harmonic or frequency issues are probably all absorbed by the isolation provided by the urethane in the joint, but I was just wondering how the material of the arm itself plays into things. I'm probably overthinking it again. It seems reasonable, yet hard to imagine that arm material would make a noticeable difference.
You are still operating under the assumption that control arms and joints have much of an effect on ride quality and they really don't. It is a myth perpetuated by folks trying to sell something different as a single point solution and by others who believe that arm angle at reasonable lift height matters and again, it just doesn't.
 
You are correct. I am still operating under the assumption that control arms (joints and angles) effect ride quality. They really don't huh?

I know you'd probably like to hit me on the head with that stick in your (icon) hand, because I keep asking about your experience with the test mule and JJ and DDBs. I just ask for a little more patience. I am listening. Its just that, without driving one, its hard to believe that their really is no difference in ride quality between JJ and DDB (or Clevite). Is everyone that says they feel a difference coming from a biased opinion because they spent the money on something? That is indeed hard to overcome. Or is it a difference of other things such as shocks and tires that absorb the NVH before it ever gets to the arms? I wonder if you would feel the difference between a JJ and DDB in a stock Rubi with those stiff, load range E, MTRs. A poor tire choice for sure. But it would reveal if any NVH is absorbed by an arm.

Thank you Mr Blaine (and Jerry and everyone else) for you continued effort to help me sort this all out.