Yes, still another death wobble question

[mainegoat68]

OK, here goes. I've been an auto/truck tech for 44 years, and do a great deal of drivetrain work. This, by no means, says that I know everything. I learn new things daily. I have a low mileage 04 tj-x model. Bought it 2 years ago, only put 2,000 miles on it. The thing is in real clean condition. Stored every winter. Mostly stock, except for a 2" spacer lift, and new adjustable lower control arms. It has 16" wheels with 265/75r16 Toyo Open Country tires, approx. 31". It will get the Wobble every now and then, might go 500 miles without it. Usually happens on a choppy road where the right front hits some ripples at around 45-50 mph. T

hen hold the hell on, complete stop needed. I've checked the front end numerous times with some fellow techs, in case I missed something. I put a new track bar from Napa (USA one). New stock uppers and poly bushings in axle. No elongated holes, everything torqued to spec.. The front end is as tight as can be, u-joints are good. Performed an alignment myself ( have a Bee Line 7000 machine) every thing in spec, +7 left, +7 1/4 right caster. The tires are about half worn, had them Road Force balanced by a "reputable" shop. I have been reading up on these posts, looking for something I may have missed, or need to know.

I agree with @mrblaine, that changing good parts for the sake of changing them will get you nowhere. I do have a few questions for the jeep experts here, if you would be so kind. I've owned a XJ, a ZJ, a WJ, and now a WK. I realize the WK has a different front end design, but none of the others never had the Wobble, even with mud filling up the wheels, giving a bad out of balance feel, till I washed it. I know it's stated here that it is usually tire related, if the front end is tight. Could the tires, being tall and a bit narrow, contribute to the problem?

They aren't E rated, but could they be too stiff still? I've got the pressure down to 24 on them, and it feels better. I was trying to borrow a set of tires/wheels from somebody to test it, but haven't found anyone in my area. I bought it with the 16" wheels, but would I be better off with 15's? I already own the 16's, and this would likely be the last tires I buy for it, based on the miles I put on. I just run logging roads, no real mud or rocks, climbing, etc.. What would a good tire be? A softer tire? Harder one? I'll spend whatever it takes to remedy this, but don't want to throw money away for nothing.

I've diagnosed Death Wobble on numerous full size Dodge and GM pickups over the years, and every time, it was from a worn front end part. not this time. I did a 71 Dodge W3500 once, and thought I was actually going to die on the test drive. I really like the TJ, and would like to use it more, but my wife freaks out big time when it happens (with good reason). Any thoughts would be appreciated. Russ

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Based on what you have done my gut feel is you have at least one front tire that is imperfectly balanced. Nope, Roadforce balancing is no guarantee of good enough tire balance. I stopped paying extra for Roadforce after getting too many bad balance jobs.

A balanced electric motor spinning while only being loosely bolted to the work bench won't shake or vibrate. An out of balance spinning motor bolted firmly to the work bench will shake/vibrate the work bench. An out of balance spinning motor only loosely bolted to the work bench will shake the bejesus out of the work bench.

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

Jerry posted a lot about DW and tire balance.

Has DW been randomly happening as long as you've owned it?
Did you get the TJ with the current tires and wheels or did you change them?

When I bought my Rubicon, it had some aftermarket 17" wheels and fairly wide tires about 31" tall and the only thing that fixed my DW was going back to the stock 16" wheels and non-stock 235/85R16 E rated tires which were properly balanced. They are about 1.25" narrower and .25" taller than your tires and no problems there.

 

[Paparock1]

I am by no means an expert on TJ's but I had been chasing death wobble for about 9 months. I would make some improvement or adjustment and it would feel like it was great for a while then out of the blue it would happen again. I broke my CB antenna at the base from the wobble. What finally fixed my problem? a good used set of 33x12.5x15 and used aluminum wheels. I had 31x10.5x15 on steel wheels.

Someone might suspect a bend wheel, a broke cord or a bad balance job. I had five wheels and rotated every single possible way to see if I had a tire or wheel problem. It didn't matter what tire combo I put up front eventually it would happen. I balanced and rebalanced the tires, I spent a lot of time just getting the lug nuts tightened down with the rim centered. The old tires were cooper discoverer AT3s, with about 15,000 miles on them.

My new to me tires are general grabber ATS. I drive the same roads to and from work and every now and then I get the pre wobble feel in my steering wheel but it goes away quickly. It is very mild but when you experience death wobble multiple times you get a feel for it. What I am getting at is I think something is still not right in the front end but I am not sure what it is. Things I have planed in the future are new unit bearings, repairing the axle track bar hole (it is out of round).

If it were me, I would try hard to find a set of tires and wheels to use just to rule those out.

If you care to read my set up and what I have done:
I bought the Jeep with a 4 inch black mountain lift and Bilstein 5100 shocks installed by black mountain in Texas 14 Jun 2012. I found the paper work in the glovebox. They also regeared to 4.56 gears.
I added: New adjustable rough country front and rear track bars, New rough country adjustable upper control arms, Welded mini skids on axle lower control arm mounts, Welded in cam washer eliminator washers (cant remember the name) new moog ball joints, checked unit bearings at the time and they are tight. Adjusted axles front and rear to get them square or straight with each other (the front was 1/2 inch forward on the passenger side while the rear was 3/8 in aft on the rear passenger side((if I remember correctly)). Complete brake job with new hardware in the drums and new stainless longer brake lines.

Hope this helps

 

[Imapepper]

tires

 

[Goatman]

Are they original rims? Anytime you get aftermarket rims you want to get hub-centric rims. Most are going to be lug-centric. And they can be mounted slightly, just slightly out of center causing the rim/tire to spin out of balance. Irregardless of how well the balance job is, if they are then mounted out of center they act out of balance.
A hub-centric rim is made to center on the very center of the hub.
A lug-centric rim has an oversized center hole. This way the rim can be made to fit a variety of vehicles with varying sized hubs. Every time you tighten up the lugnuts the Tim gets pulled tight by the first bolt and how it is centered is uncertain. Could be good, cood be slightly off. For most vehicles this is unnoticed by the driver. But with such a short wheelbase and solid axle the steering is not able to suppress the vibe.
That is why folks say to re-re-re-re-rebalance your tires. It's the luck of the draw if, no matter how perfectly balanced they are on the machine they aren't on the Jeep. Get a set of hub centers made to fit your rim to the Jeep hub and if everything else is good your vibe problems should disappear.
I get blasted a lot for this. I have cured vibe problems on several different vehicles simply by getting the rims to stay centered on the hubs.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Are they original rims? Anytime you get aftermarket rims you want to get hub-centric rims. Most are going to be lug-centric. And they can be mounted slightly, just slightly out of center causing the rim/tire to spin out of balance. Irregardless of how well the balance job is, if they are then mounted out of center they act out of balance.
A hub-centric rim is made to center on the very center of the hub.
A lug-centric rim has an oversized center hole. This way the rim can be made to fit a variety of vehicles with varying sized hubs. Every time you tighten up the lugnuts the Tim gets pulled tight by the first bolt and how it is centered is uncertain.

Not true with the correct tapered seat lug nuts which serve to correctly position and center a lug centric wheel. Pretty much all the aftermarket wheels we use on our Wranglers are lug centric. I haven't had a hub centric wheel on my Jeeps in 23 years.

 

[Jodh]

Could the poly bushing be contributing to it? Maybe rubber will absorb the vibration and stop the oscillation before it gets out of hand? I know it's kind of a bandaid approach like blaming the steering stabilizer but thought maybe have rubber on some parts and poly on others will cause different harmonics admin set things in motion.

 

[01CuHed]

I still have my stock steel wheels on my completely stock 2001 Jeep Wrangler Sport and they in a sense fit both hub and lug centric when used with the correct tapered lug nuts.? The steel wheel will fit over the raised axle hub ring but I still have to take the time to slightly adjust the wheel (a little bit of play in there) to insure a centered tapered lug nut fit on the lugs.

 

[mainegoat68]

Thanks for the replies. I bought the TJ with the tires and wheels it now has. I believe they are Ultra 16x8. It had the DW all along, so I started changing the control arms, bushings etc, as they were around 15 years old. It happened with old and new parts. I balanced the wheels myself, I have access to a low end balancer. I then sent them out for a re-balance, and then went to the Road Force. Obviously, I can't guarantee the other people cared enough to do a good job, or that there isn't a hidden issue with one of the tires or wheels. I have rotated them in every possible way. We used to have a truck tire balancer that balanced them on the vehicle. It had a high speed drum that spun them, and used a strobe light to find the heavy spots. That way you could balance everything. Never tried it on a smaller tire.

 

[JMT]

One possibility is you have some bad tires (out of round, some other issue). I did several balances on one set of tires, and no matter where I rotated them I got DW. I also replaced my tie rod ends and tie rod and drag link. Still getting DW. Those were 31's. When I bought new tires, there was no more DW. Those were 33's.

 

[AndyG]

I am by no means an expert on TJ's but I had been chasing death wobble for about 9 months. I would make some improvement or adjustment and it would feel like it was great for a while then out of the blue it would happen again. I broke my CB antenna at the base from the wobble. What finally fixed my problem? a good used set of 33x12.5x15 and used aluminum wheels. I had 31x10.5x15 on steel wheels.

Someone might suspect a bend wheel, a broke cord or a bad balance job. I had five wheels and rotated every single possible way to see if I had a tire or wheel problem. It didn't matter what tire combo I put up front eventually it would happen. I balanced and rebalanced the tires, I spent a lot of time just getting the lug nuts tightened down with the rim centered. The old tires were cooper discoverer AT3s, with about 15,000 miles on them.

My new to me tires are general grabber ATS. I drive the same roads to and from work and every now and then I get the pre wobble feel in my steering wheel but it goes away quickly. It is very mild but when you experience death wobble multiple times you get a feel for it. What I am getting at is I think something is still not right in the front end but I am not sure what it is. Things I have planed in the future are new unit bearings, repairing the axle track bar hole (it is out of round).

If it were me, I would try hard to find a set of tires and wheels to use just to rule those out.

If you care to read my set up and what I have done:
I bought the Jeep with a 4 inch black mountain lift and Bilstein 5100 shocks installed by black mountain in Texas 14 Jun 2012. I found the paper work in the glovebox. They also regeared to 4.56 gears.
I added: New adjustable rough country front and rear track bars, New rough country adjustable upper control arms, Welded mini skids on axle lower control arm mounts, Welded in cam washer eliminator washers (cant remember the name) new moog ball joints, checked unit bearings at the time and they are tight. Adjusted axles front and rear to get them square or straight with each other (the front was 1/2 inch forward on the passenger side while the rear was 3/8 in aft on the rear passenger side((if I remember correctly)). Complete brake job with new hardware in the drums and new stainless longer brake lines.

Hope this helps

In reference to the above post:

First thing I would do is get the rough country track bushings gone ...I eventually put in energy suspension polyurethane bushings , they had a 1/2" i.d. , I drilled out the axle mount to 15/32 and put in a hardened 12mm bolt and lock nut . Smooth as glass.

Some guys use the JK bushing and a 14mm, but 14mm bolt options are limited it seems.

I can't get 15- 20,000 miles highway our of rough country Made in Mexico track bar bushings , the inner sleeve is rolled , not milled , soft , it elongates , and the compound seems to be too soft for my 33" tires .

 

[AndyG]

Based on what you have done my gut feel is you have at least one front tire that is imperfectly balanced. Nope, Roadforce balancing is no guarantee of good enough tire balance. I stopped paying extra for Roadforce after getting too many bad balance jobs.

A balanced electric motor spinning while only being loosely bolted to the work bench won't shake or vibrate. An out of balance spinning motor bolted firmly to the work bench will shake/vibrate the work bench. An out of balance spinning motor only loosely bolted to the work bench will shake the bejesus out of the work bench.

I 'll go a little further to add the Jeep sits a lot ..not the kiss of death , but it doesn't help . Also , tires that sit on bare earth extended periods have a reputation for the steel belts rusting .

Tires can do some weird stuff as they age .
.

 

[Goatman]

Not true with the correct tapered seat lug nuts which serve to correctly position and center a lug centric wheel. Pretty much all the aftermarket wheels we use on our Wranglers are lug centric. I haven't had a hub centric wheel on my Jeeps in 23 years.

Jerry I respect you and your experience a whole lot. But I have seen something as old and rickety and out of wack as a OLD, and I mean OLD hay rake have deathwobble oscillations be cleared up simply by putting on a hub-centric rim and tire on it. Your milage may vary. I've seen it work on Toyota Tacoma's, I've seen it on Ford Rangers, I've seen it on Jeeps, I've seen it on trailers. Would it be my first place to look? No. But if all the other areas check out ok, then I have seen switching to a hub-centric rim cure the problem on many occasions. Obviously you haven't. I've never seen a beached whale, doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[mainegoat68]

Good idea on the possibility of old tires. I bought the TJ with them on it, and would have no idea how old they are. I never think of the age of tires because they wear out so fast, on most of my vehicles, but this one barely gets used. Bought it off of a lobsterman, who hardly used it either. Those guys are always working. It's in storage now, I'll stop by and get the date off the tires. It does have multiple bolt pattern wheels on it, therefore, not hub-centric, by the way.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Jerry I respect you and your experience a whole lot. But I have seen something as old and rickety and out of wack as a OLD, and I mean OLD hay rake have deathwobble oscillations be cleared up simply by putting on a hub-centric rim and tire on it. Your milage may vary. I've seen it work on Toyota Tacoma's, I've seen it on Ford Rangers, I've seen it on Jeeps, I've seen it on trailers. Would it be my first place to look? No. But if all the other areas check out ok, then I have seen switching to a hub-centric rim cure the problem on many occasions.

Yes according to your campaign lug-centric aftermarket wheels are the cause of all Jeep ills, acne, and world famine. Convert to hub centric wheels and save the world. If only. According to you my Jeep with its Walker Evans lug-centric beadlock wheels should have incurable death wobble. Not to mention very few aftermarket wheels we run on our Jeeps are even available as hub centric.

 

[Goatman]

Yes according to your campaign lug-centric aftermarket wheels are the cause of all Jeep ills, acne, and world famine. Convert to hub centric wheels and save the world. If only. According to you my Jeep with its Walker Evans lug-centric beadlock wheels should have incurable death wobble. Not to mention very few aftermarket wheels we run on our Jeeps are even available as hub centric.

As much as you want to get in a spitting match I not taking the bait. I CLEARLY stated that before I even think about the rim style I would be sure everything else was tight and right. But when everything else has been checked and confirmed to be in good shape and you have tried repeatedly rebalancing the tires then often I have found the use of hub-centric rims to be the cure. So no matter how many times you want to stomp your feet about it, sometimes lug-centric rims just don't center correctly. Period.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

So no matter how many times you want to stomp your feet about it, sometimes lug-centric rims just don't center correctly. Period.

Then explain this please... how can a wheel not be centered when using the correct tapered base lug nuts that force the wheel's lug nut openings to center about the lugs?

And please explain why the majority of us who are running aftermarket wheels, the vast majority of which are lug centric, are not having problems with DW?

 

[Kris M]

Yes according to your campaign lug-centric aftermarket wheels are the cause of all Jeep ills, acne, and world famine. Convert to hub centric wheels and save the world. If only. According to you my Jeep with its Walker Evans lug-centric beadlock wheels should have incurable death wobble. Not to mention very few aftermarket wheels we run on our Jeeps are even available as hub centric.

I knew it’s those damn Mickey Thompson’s that gave me acne!

 

[AndyG]

You can look at death wobble categorically-

Active- a low or out of balance tire , which will be a constant

Passive - such as a loose track bar that is fine til you hit a big pothole

Typically,it can be one , or the other , or some of each ...as many TJs have worn components , just not worn to the point the owner knows it , as it happens so slowly . The severity is based on the tire imbalance, amount of wear of components , or cumulative effect of both .

The 16" tire and hub centric issue phenomena is hard to define , but has been documented and can be real as well , and almost needs to be seen as mechanical .. I really don't know how to define it ...also Mr. Blaine has cited some other harmonic issues he has seen , but at the end of the day, anything that overpowers the vehicles inherent tracking, is in the mix.