And here's the culmination of my rear frame raise project:
Next!
Next!
Sab-a-dab-a-doo! The back-country LJ build has officially started
- Thread starter sab
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You asked about the double flaring tool somewhere. I did one with the K-tool version. I used the "fully annealed" crap from Inline Tube which if that is what fully annealed is, I want nothing to do with anything that isn't.
Here is the flare, 45 degree SAE, double flare. Cut with a cut-off disc, deburred on a sander, nothing that could contribute to work hardening and surprisingly, it came out perfectly acceptable.
Here is the flare, 45 degree SAE, double flare. Cut with a cut-off disc, deburred on a sander, nothing that could contribute to work hardening and surprisingly, it came out perfectly acceptable.
Last night and the night before, I started the aluminum slider backer project by removing the Rockslide Engineering step sliders I installed a couple years back. I'm not replacing them, as I like the steps for this bucket-list LJ. I ain't gettin' any younger, and I can see (feel!) that my mobility as I age will make me appreciate these steps more and more. I also have a short wife, also aging with me, and I really do enjoy her company in the backcountry! If I have any hope of continuing to share her company there, I need to make riding in the LJ as pleasant as possible for her. Happy wife, happy life, and all that!
So, enough justification of this odd choice of rock slider for my build. I wanted to point out that the wise owls here on the forum (you know who you are, my friends!) time and again prove their wisdom. Case in point: why wheel-well-to-wheel-well rocker coverage is important, why inside backing plates are important, and why fastener count and spacing is important when attaching anything to a sheet metal body, was demonstrated to me after removing the step sliders and fender flares over the last couple evenings.
First, regarding fastener count, spacing, and backer plates, their need was demonstrated when I discovered this damage to one of the nutserts installed for the step sliders:
That's on the rear of the passenger side slider, and I know exactly when this happened because I've only driven this LJ a few hundred miles since installing the step sliders. When I had my half doors refurbished and rear corners body-color matched, the hot rod shop that did it asked for the LJ so that they could match the paint as well as possible. Unfortunately, it wasn't really drivable at the time. Well, it was, but I couldn't drive it very far - I had installed the body and motor mount lifts, which left the six-speed's shift lever hitting the rear tub hole in 2nd, 4th, 6th, and reverse. It was also missing tail lights. So, I borrowed a trailer to haul it there. While loading it, with the shift lever so touchy in reverse (I had to hold it in gear), I struggled loading it by myself, and the right rear ramp, which wasn't secured to the trailer, flopped, dropping the right rear corner onto the rear of the step slider. There was no visible damage, other then some paint scrapes, to the slider or the body (thank goodness!). But, as you can see above, there was damage to the body at the rear mounting nutsert under the slider. I suspect that, had I installed the aluminum backers beneath the step sliders, this damage would not have occurred because the body would have been better supported by the aluminum backer.
I've already removed the nutsert, and since that part of the body is accessible from the back side, I'll use some aluminum plates and a deep-reach c-clamp to flatten the mushroomed body panel. I plan to put an aluminum backer there (basically a large, thick washer) and use a serrated flange nut instead of the nutsert during reinstallation. I may be able to re-install a nutsert once it's flattened and the hole closes up some. Is there a better way to fix this that I haven't considered?
Second, regarding why wheel-well-to-wheel-well rocker coverage is important, I discovered that the bottom edge of the front fender on the driver side was kinked a bit from contact right behind the front wheel opening when removing the flare (no picture, unfortunately). I've had the flares off before, and I didn't notice this damage, but I'm sure it was there when I bought the rig because I've never taken it off-road, and nothing ever hit it while on-road. I got it mostly back to original shape using a c-clamp with aluminum plates, along with a Knipex smooth jaw pliers wrench. It's not visible anyway, once the aluminum slider backer and fender flare are in place.
So, to reiterate this next project, @mrblaine put me in touch with @Fluxor, and I got an early-release version of his aluminum sliders (minus the rash guards) with no holes in them. I'll install these, with the internal aluminum backing plates below the door opening, and then put the step sliders over them. It's going to be a bit tricky with mounting hole locations, since the step sliders are already drilled. I'll likely add fasteners to them in between the existing ones, but I won't know for sure exactly how I'll do it until I start fitment, hopefully this weekend.
One other issue for which I seek guidance is how to deal with the fact that I've already installed nutserts for the step sliders in the area where the internal backing plates go below the door opening. Those nutserts will prevent the inner backing plates from sitting flat to the body. If I remove those and use the larger diameter holes left behind for mounting the step sliders (and add screws in between), I believe I'll be okay because it's the clamping force from bolt stretch that holds everything together (the body sandwiched between the inner and outer aluminum backers), rather than the edge of the body's hole. Thoughts?
So, enough justification of this odd choice of rock slider for my build. I wanted to point out that the wise owls here on the forum (you know who you are, my friends!) time and again prove their wisdom. Case in point: why wheel-well-to-wheel-well rocker coverage is important, why inside backing plates are important, and why fastener count and spacing is important when attaching anything to a sheet metal body, was demonstrated to me after removing the step sliders and fender flares over the last couple evenings.
First, regarding fastener count, spacing, and backer plates, their need was demonstrated when I discovered this damage to one of the nutserts installed for the step sliders:
That's on the rear of the passenger side slider, and I know exactly when this happened because I've only driven this LJ a few hundred miles since installing the step sliders. When I had my half doors refurbished and rear corners body-color matched, the hot rod shop that did it asked for the LJ so that they could match the paint as well as possible. Unfortunately, it wasn't really drivable at the time. Well, it was, but I couldn't drive it very far - I had installed the body and motor mount lifts, which left the six-speed's shift lever hitting the rear tub hole in 2nd, 4th, 6th, and reverse. It was also missing tail lights. So, I borrowed a trailer to haul it there. While loading it, with the shift lever so touchy in reverse (I had to hold it in gear), I struggled loading it by myself, and the right rear ramp, which wasn't secured to the trailer, flopped, dropping the right rear corner onto the rear of the step slider. There was no visible damage, other then some paint scrapes, to the slider or the body (thank goodness!). But, as you can see above, there was damage to the body at the rear mounting nutsert under the slider. I suspect that, had I installed the aluminum backers beneath the step sliders, this damage would not have occurred because the body would have been better supported by the aluminum backer.
I've already removed the nutsert, and since that part of the body is accessible from the back side, I'll use some aluminum plates and a deep-reach c-clamp to flatten the mushroomed body panel. I plan to put an aluminum backer there (basically a large, thick washer) and use a serrated flange nut instead of the nutsert during reinstallation. I may be able to re-install a nutsert once it's flattened and the hole closes up some. Is there a better way to fix this that I haven't considered?
Second, regarding why wheel-well-to-wheel-well rocker coverage is important, I discovered that the bottom edge of the front fender on the driver side was kinked a bit from contact right behind the front wheel opening when removing the flare (no picture, unfortunately). I've had the flares off before, and I didn't notice this damage, but I'm sure it was there when I bought the rig because I've never taken it off-road, and nothing ever hit it while on-road. I got it mostly back to original shape using a c-clamp with aluminum plates, along with a Knipex smooth jaw pliers wrench. It's not visible anyway, once the aluminum slider backer and fender flare are in place.
So, to reiterate this next project, @mrblaine put me in touch with @Fluxor, and I got an early-release version of his aluminum sliders (minus the rash guards) with no holes in them. I'll install these, with the internal aluminum backing plates below the door opening, and then put the step sliders over them. It's going to be a bit tricky with mounting hole locations, since the step sliders are already drilled. I'll likely add fasteners to them in between the existing ones, but I won't know for sure exactly how I'll do it until I start fitment, hopefully this weekend.
One other issue for which I seek guidance is how to deal with the fact that I've already installed nutserts for the step sliders in the area where the internal backing plates go below the door opening. Those nutserts will prevent the inner backing plates from sitting flat to the body. If I remove those and use the larger diameter holes left behind for mounting the step sliders (and add screws in between), I believe I'll be okay because it's the clamping force from bolt stretch that holds everything together (the body sandwiched between the inner and outer aluminum backers), rather than the edge of the body's hole. Thoughts?
Ignore the existing nutsert holes, just remove the nutserts. Do your lay-out mechanically and aesthetically paying attention to the length of your backer inside. Once they are laid out appropriately, drill through the clamped in place aluminum rail with a Rotabroach in 3/8" for 5/16" diameter fasteners at all locations. Don't try to hit the existing holes. They may be too high or too low and you don't want to compound an error.
Understood, but since I'm reinstalling the step sliders over the aluminum sliders, should I plug weld the existing step slider holes and drill new ones in order to avoid the old holes? I can likely use the buddy's mill to clean up the plug welds better than I did with the rear frame raise, since the griding on those wasn't even close to flat. Here's the sequence that this would entail:
- Plug weld the existing holes in the step sliders and mill them flat.
- Remove existing nutserts that were installed for the step sliders.
- Clamp aluminum outer and inner backers in place.
- Drill 3/8" holes through aluminum outer backer, steel body, and aluminum inner backer in one operation (Rotabroach).
- Remove backers and countersink on drill press.
- Install aluminum outer and inner backers.
- Clamp step slider in place.
- Drill 3/8" holes through steel step slider, aluminum outer backer, steel body, and aluminum inner backer in one operation (Rotabroach).
- Install step slider (I think it's 11 gauge, so I'll just use hex head bolts since it's thicker than the .191" thick heads on 5/16"-18 flathead screws).
Just a bit of practice and you can use the sanding disc and then a couple more to get them to be flat. Milling sucks and you know that.
Yes
No
Rotabroach has a limited cutting depth. Somewhere around 3/8" or so.
Countersink first. The countersink always guides the Rotabroach to the center, exact center of the hole.
Not enough info. But, hex bolts are going to look like shit. It is a simple matter to slightly oversize the top part of the hole in the aluminum even if you just kiss it with a countersink and then use flat heads for the step slider. Even button head Torx would look better.
I guess it's worth a try. I'm a better machinist than grinder (and all that does is say how bad a grinder I am), but they do say that practice makes perfect
Crap. I was thinking that depth would be okay because I'm going through several layers, but as soon as I read that, I remembered that they are stepped, so that won't work. So the better plan is drill and countersink the aluminum first and use that hole as a guide to drill the body holes. That makes sense - it's what I did with the GR corners.
Agreed. My concern was whether or not a flathead would pull through 11ga steel under load, since the clamping force is resisted by the small countersink contact area:
Seeing what that trailer drop I mentioned did to the nutsert makes me cautious. Do you think it'd be okay?
See the continuation of the step slider reinforcement project in Post #174.
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I'm building some SS hardlines for a build. After doing several, I can tell the tool isn't going to be long for this world. It does them, it really doesn't like it. I'll get done, but I'm pretty sure that when I am finished, the tool won't do another set. That is 5 flares so far.
It's sad that there doesn't seem to be any real info out there on a proper tool to flare the annealed stainless tubing. I just called Inline Tube, and here's a record of my conversation with their tech rep:
Q: To your knowledge, has Inline Tube had any tubing batches released with improper annealing?
A: Not to my knowledge
Q: Have you had any complaints that your TLF08 flaring tool (looks exactly like the K-Tool tool) wears quickly when used on stainless tubing?
A: No, it's what we normally recommend
Q: Are you aware of a better tool to flare stainless tubing?
A: We do have a hydraulic tool, part number TLF12 (My Note: That tool looks like a lighter-duty version of the MasterCool, so I'm not impressed). It's more expensive, but it, too, is recommended for stainless tubing.
Q: Have you had any complaints that your TLF12 hydraulic flaring tool wears quickly when used on stainless tubing?
A: Only one. I had a gentleman that did about 8 vehicles in one day, and wore out the dies.
It seems like the K-tools is the best available tool, but you best plan on burning a set of dies with each vehicle done. Sad. Maybe the CuproNickel tubing is a better route?
Unrelated - regarding the last part of my last post on the sliders. Would you be concerned about flatheads pulling through the 11ga steel of the step sliders?
There are several different brands on what appears to be the same tools. I do not know if there is a difference, I suspect there could be since knock-off levels of quality tend to vary.
Well that's bullshit. Were there 2 flares per vehicles or 20? If there were 20, that guy is a brake line and flaring stud. Especially since they can not be done under the vehicle like you can do with the Mastercool. To get it correct, you have to snug down a fittings and restraints, mark the cut, disassemble, carry to the tool and then flare it. In perspective, I've done 100's upon 100's of flares including some stainless with my Mastercool and it works today exactly like it did the first day I used it with zero issues. I am also not concerned about the dies, they seem fine. What is showing wear is the lever press mechanism.
I despise cupronickel. It is far too delicate for use in an offroad vehicle. If you want cupro-nickel, I'll send you what I have left since I'll never use it again.
If I was concerned, I'd add more fasteners. They can't be any worse than an undercut head which does the exact same thing and I've never had any issue with them. I am flailing about in the dark since I do not have a visual reference, just your description.
So, having used both the K-Tool and the MasterCool, would you recommend the MasterCool over the K-tool for stainless?
Asked and answered (thank you!) - no need to send me that tubing
I do plan to increase the number of fasteners (they fasten to the vertical body sides with only six screws). Besides the drawing I posted in Post 168 above, what pictures could I take and post later to help shed more light?
Not really. The MC dies have a larger gap between the pair so when you get it cranked down tight enough so the tube doesn't slip, it squeezes out two little ridges opposite each other. Then you have to turn the tube 90 degrees and reclamp it to mash the tube back into round or the tube nut won't slide down to the flare which also means if you don't get it close to perfect again, then you have to turn the flare nut with a tool to start it in the threads which is a disaster waiting to happen.
My best recommendation is to used Bundy Tube. Flares and bends almost as easy as cupro-nickel, almost as tough as stainless, and is well plated for corrosion resistance.
I really don't mind, someone needs to use it up.Asked and answered (thank you!) - no need to send me that tubing
Pics of the parts might help.
Here are pictures of the step sliders - first by themselves, and then with the aluminum backers on the inside of them (Note: not shown - there are 3/16" steel outer armor pieces that bolt on to the outside of the step sliders, too):
For the vertical sides, I would use a lower row of seven screws, in a similar location as the screws that hold the steel Savvy sliders, along with two upper screws on ends, to attach the aluminum backers to the tub, and then an upper row of seven screws to attach both the step sliders and the aluminum backers. I stole the photo below of the Savvy sliders from a post made by someone else (thanks, @Midnight LJR!) and edited it to show what I'm thinking. The holes circled in red would go only through the aluminum backers, while the yellow ones would go through both the step sliders and the aluminum backers. As for the holes into the bottom of the tub, I've not gotten that far, yet.
By the way, there's very little info on the mechanical properties of those stainless Type F torx flathead decking screws you are using, but what information I can find looks like they are not high strength (meaning similar to alloy socket head cap screws). Are the ones you are using high strength?
I'm pondering some, but to answer one of your questions, we will make the assumption that any stainless that has been hardened enough to cut threads in a straight drilled hole in a trailer crossmember will by that property alone be hard enough to be stronger than any normal 316, 304, or 18-8 SS fastener which rarely gets up to even Grade 2 strength. And given the fact that we have never even come close to stripping out the drive recess when we use an impact on them, I don't think they are lacking in strength. Scooch them over into sheet metal screw territory and see how you view them then.
It's been over a week since my last post, but that's not indicative of a lack of work on the step slider reinforcement project. Last week, during the forum's re-build, Mr. Blaine and I took the discussion to email. I had asked for his thoughts on how to combine his original Savvy slider design with the Rockslide Engineering step sliders for optimum protection. I think we've come up with a good way to do it. There are a few issues to deal with. First, the step sliders are 1/8" thick steel, and I have the optional armor for them, which is 3/16" steel. The top bolts in the side of the body have to go through the 1/8" section of the sliders, so I decided to go with 1/4-20 bolts there instead of 5/16-18 because the head height of the 1/4-20 bolts is just a hair over 1/8. I actually started discussing this in Post #168 (see the last CAD drawing I posted, which shows a 5/16-18 bolt through the 1/8" steel slider) before resorting to email with Mr. Blaine. I'm using 9 of those 1/4-20s since they'll not be as robust as the 5/16-18 bolts. In order to do that, I'll have to plug weld the old holes in the Rockslide sliders and drill new ones (more on that at the end of this post).
Another issue is at the bottom of the sliders. Mr. Blaine suggested putting long-reach nutserts in the aluminum backers and screwing through the Rockslide armor and sliders to the aluminum backers in the empty area between the outer body wall and the torque boxes and cutting the Rockslide sliders and armor short, since they would no longer be screwed into the torque box (only the aluminum backer will be screwed into the torque box). So, here's a cross section showing the plan:
Another issue is the bending load on the Rockslide sliders at the bottom. The gussets (shown hatched above) will be added to move the fulcrum point outboard. I'll weld those to the inside of the Rockslide sliders.
So, with a plan in mind, yesterday I started executing it in earnest. Here, I've drawn the cut line for Rockslide bottoms, and placed center marks for the bottom bolts:
After that, I masked the surface (this armor is already custom powder coated) and clamped on a straight edge for the circular saw offset from the cut line:
Next, I commenced to cuttin'. I cut through both the 1/8" slider and the 3/16" armor in one go. Here I am halfway through the first side:
One nice side benefit of cutting the Rockslide sliders off is the weight loss, which is not trivial:
That's equivalent to more than one of the aluminum backers! Here are the Rockslide sliders with the bottoms cut off:
That Milwaukee saw leaves a nice, clean cut, but the edges are very sharp. I used a coarse file, fine file, and some emery cloth to take the edge off:
Next, I drilled and countersunk the holes in the bottom. A Rotabroach in the mag-base drill made short work of it:
And nice and slow with the countersink made for chatter-free countersinks:
Finally, I started on the plug welds for the existing holes in the Rockslide sliders. First, I used the Wizard's expensive, magic wheel in my M18 drill to quickly remove the powder coating. That thing really is magic! Below, you can see a copper plug weld device on the underside, but it didn't work - the spring was too weak, and I ended up die-grinding and starting over:
I ended up using a big chunk of copper with some small C-clamps to do it proper-like:
And the result:
And that was it for the weekend's work. I have about a dozen more to plug weld, and then grind and dress them up, followed by drilling and countersinking the new holes. Stay tuned!
See the continuation of the step slider reinforcement project in Post #180.
Another issue is at the bottom of the sliders. Mr. Blaine suggested putting long-reach nutserts in the aluminum backers and screwing through the Rockslide armor and sliders to the aluminum backers in the empty area between the outer body wall and the torque boxes and cutting the Rockslide sliders and armor short, since they would no longer be screwed into the torque box (only the aluminum backer will be screwed into the torque box). So, here's a cross section showing the plan:
Another issue is the bending load on the Rockslide sliders at the bottom. The gussets (shown hatched above) will be added to move the fulcrum point outboard. I'll weld those to the inside of the Rockslide sliders.
So, with a plan in mind, yesterday I started executing it in earnest. Here, I've drawn the cut line for Rockslide bottoms, and placed center marks for the bottom bolts:
After that, I masked the surface (this armor is already custom powder coated) and clamped on a straight edge for the circular saw offset from the cut line:
Next, I commenced to cuttin'. I cut through both the 1/8" slider and the 3/16" armor in one go. Here I am halfway through the first side:
One nice side benefit of cutting the Rockslide sliders off is the weight loss, which is not trivial:
That's equivalent to more than one of the aluminum backers! Here are the Rockslide sliders with the bottoms cut off:
That Milwaukee saw leaves a nice, clean cut, but the edges are very sharp. I used a coarse file, fine file, and some emery cloth to take the edge off:
Next, I drilled and countersunk the holes in the bottom. A Rotabroach in the mag-base drill made short work of it:
And nice and slow with the countersink made for chatter-free countersinks:
Finally, I started on the plug welds for the existing holes in the Rockslide sliders. First, I used the Wizard's expensive, magic wheel in my M18 drill to quickly remove the powder coating. That thing really is magic! Below, you can see a copper plug weld device on the underside, but it didn't work - the spring was too weak, and I ended up die-grinding and starting over:
I ended up using a big chunk of copper with some small C-clamps to do it proper-like:
And the result:
And that was it for the weekend's work. I have about a dozen more to plug weld, and then grind and dress them up, followed by drilling and countersinking the new holes. Stay tuned!
See the continuation of the step slider reinforcement project in Post #180.
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Very clearly explained and nice clean work. That hand drawing is great, helped me understand what you are trying to do, Like @Mike_H said .. you will have a functional (in terms of protection) set of powered steps. Thanks for taking the time to do the photos and the write ups.
After seeing you do this, and @Mike_H/@JMT fix their JCR sliders and @jjvw (and others) fix his bumpers .. one starts realizing just how much effort went into the stuff @mrblaine put in for the Savvy items. They look simple but the details are anything but. Same goes for the intricate details in my orange jeep build. Understanding and having a deep appreciation for the good design details is really making the "phase 2" of my jeep ownership highly highly enjoyable.
Yes, when I bought the steps, I hadn't yet discovered all the forum posts about sliders. That was almost three years ago. Once I realized the shortcomings, I decided to rectify it because I really like having the steps as I go into "the golden years" with my LJ. I had been trying to purchase the Savvy aluminum slider backers for years, but they just wouldn't (couldn't?) make a batch of them. One day, I was talking to Mr. Blaine, and then jjvw, about how to properly build some myself, when Mr. Blaine told me that Fluxor was going to be making some. He put in a word to Fluxor for me, and I was able to buy a set sans holes from him, which worked out perfectly!
Absolutely, there are decades of experience and sound engineering into Mr. Blaine's original designs, and I'm extremely appreciative to be able to short-cut the trial-and-error phase for my build! This forum, and the resources available on it, are a huge blessing to TJ owners.
I had to burn a PTO day or lose it, so I took the day off and continued the step slider reinforcement project. First, I finished all the plug welds (no pics). Next, I welded some flange nuts (not serrated) to the inside of the step sliders for mounting the step slider armor. I decided to do this instead of nutserts to avoid having to counterbore the inside of the armor to get it to sit flush against the sliders. The sliders were originally drilled and tapped, but with the 1/8" thickness, I was worried they'd pull out if the sliders took a big hit. After drilling the D&T holes out to 3/8", I removed the powder coat and bolted the armor to the sliders using the flange nuts):
I used flange nuts so that I could use my TIG and fusion weld the flanges, for more controlled heat input:
After that, I disassembled everything, ran a tap through the nuts, and ran the screws through a die to clean them up after the welding. And that was it for today's accomplishments. Stay tuned for more tomorrow and Sunday...
I used flange nuts so that I could use my TIG and fusion weld the flanges, for more controlled heat input:
After that, I disassembled everything, ran a tap through the nuts, and ran the screws through a die to clean them up after the welding. And that was it for today's accomplishments. Stay tuned for more tomorrow and Sunday...
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