When is there not a point of weight reduction?

I may or may not be guilty of similar. The reason the rear corner weights seem a bit off is some of the fuel is under the front seats. The rear coil overs are supporting the rig 4ish" in front of the tail lights. We actually set all of the cargo right in front of the tail gate for a worst case scenario. The rest of the time it sits in the cargo tray we made for the top of the fuel tank.

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nice.........pushin everything center as much as possible makes the most sense to me, looking from a stability standpoint. centered and as low as possible, not including the overhead bar work of course.

i do wish i had room to lay the big spare flat in the bed, i plan to carry it so i do have some weight directly over top of that rear diff. i think having the weight there will make things more predictable and aid rear wheel traction.
 
I'm late to this thread (work was busy all week), but thought I'd contribute. Weight is the force multiplier of the vehicle performance world. It is a parameter that affects nearly everything you ask a vehicle to do. Ignoring weight distribution for a moment (weight distribution is important, too, but not as much as weight itself), lighter vehicles accelerate at a higher rate, brake better, and turn quicker. In other words, less weight has the same effect as more engine torque and better brakes. However, it's even better than that. When the designer makes significant progress reducing weight, that weight loss can compound because structural members can be lightened even more if their loads are reduced by overall vehicle weight reductions. In building a Jeep, though, getting some of the compounding effects is costly, in terms of time and money spent getting there.

Weight is recognized by many racing sanctioning bodies as a very important parameter. As a result of that recognition, minimum weight requirements are usually written into the rules. The rule is put there to level the playing field and put on a good show for the fans (a very well funded team can use expensive, exotic materials to dramatically reduce weight, giving them a huge competitive advantage, which is boring to watch, week-after-week.) Back when I was involved in open wheel cars, the C.A.R.T. rules did have a minimum weight requirement. I worked for a well-funded team that, at that time, built their own cars. Those cars were purposely designed to be significantly under-weight so that ballast plates could be attached in various locations. These ballast plates were made in several different materials so that, in addition to adding the requisite weight to get to the minimum, weight distribution could be varied to suit the driver's preferences or track needs (we ran both ovals and road courses back then).

I say all this because that experience taught me to pay close attention to vehicle weight and weight distribution. I also learned that overall vehicle weight is not reduced substantially by looking at a few components. The lightest, best-performing vehicles were made lighter by looking at every component, and optimizing them all. For instance, there are very few steel fasteners on an open wheel car. If strength is required, titanium is used. If not, aluminum is used. It may seem trivial, but when you add up all the weight saved on these fasteners, it's not trivial.

Of course, with a Jeep build, it's very difficult to take the approach of reducing weight of every component because we are not starting with a clean drawing board, but it's still important to look for weight reduction at every opportunity. I do this for my LJ build by weighing every component I remove or add to the vehicle. I keep a spreadsheet of these weights, and I use it to track overall change in weight from my modifications. For instance, here's the effect of changing to Mr. Blaine's Big Brake Kit, from that spreadsheet:

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Just under 7 pounds for much better brakes. A justifiable weight addition, in my opinion! However, I easily offset that "good" weight added, by replacing the heavy rear bumper that the previous owner installed:

1654352806512.png


Side note - notice that is the unpainted bumper weight. I forgot to weigh it again after powder coating (shame on me!) Yes, paint adds significant weight to a vehicle. When I worked for a motorcycle roadrace team, we weighed a set of carbon fiber bodywork before and after paint and were astonished at the difference - several pounds! The entire motorcycle only weighed about 350 pounds, for perspective.

My LJ is far from done, and with many of the components already on the vehicle, I don't have their weights, yet. My grand total right now is an estimated addition of 446 pounds, for a much better vehicle. However, it will likely be considerably lower than that number once I get the mods done and the weights for the parts removed in that spreadsheet. Work continues, but never at a pace fast enough for my quest for information, knowledge, and experience...

To sum up - weight is incredibly important in vehicle performance, and you can't address it fully, if you don't weigh components and make decisions with weight in mind.
 
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I'm late to this thread (work was busy all week), but thought I'd contribute. Weight is the force multiplier of the vehicle performance world. It is a parameter that affects nearly everything you ask a vehicle to do. Ignoring weight distribution for a moment (weight distribution is important, too, but not as much as weight itself), lighter vehicles accelerate at a higher rate, brake better, and turn quicker. In other words, less weight has the same effect as more engine torque and better brakes. However, it's even better than that. When the designer makes significant progress reducing weight, that weight loss can compound because structural members can be lightened even more if their loads are reduced by overall vehicle weight reductions. In building a Jeep, though, getting some of the compounding effects is costly, in terms of time and money spent getting there.

Weight is recognized by many racing sanctioning bodies as a very important parameter. As a result of that recognition, minimum weight requirements are usually written into the rules. The rule is put there to level the playing field and put on a good show for the fans (a very well funded team can use expensive, exotic materials to dramatically reduce weight, giving them a huge competitive advantage, which is boring to watch, week-after-week.) Back when I was involved in open wheel cars, the C.A.R.T. rules did have a minimum weight requirement. I worked for a well-funded team that, at that time, built their own cars. Those cars were purposely designed to be significantly under-weight so that ballast plates could be attached in various locations. These ballast plates were made in several different materials so that, in addition to adding the requisite weight to get to the minimum, weight distribution could be varied to suit the driver's preferences or track needs (we ran both ovals and road courses back then).

I say all this because that experience taught me to pay close attention to vehicle weight and weight distribution. I also learned that overall vehicle weight is not reduced substantially by looking at a few components. The lightest, best-performing vehicles were made lighter by looking at every component, and optimizing them all. For instance, there are very few steel fasteners on an open wheel car. If strength is required, titanium is used. If not, aluminum is used. It may seem trivial, but when you add up all the weight saved on these fasteners, it's not trivial.

Of course, with a Jeep build, it's very difficult to take the approach of reducing weight of every component because we are not starting with a clean drawing board, but it's still important to look for weight reduction at every opportunity. I do this for my LJ build by weighing every component I remove or add to the vehicle. I keep a spreadsheet of these weights, and I use it to track overall change in weight from my modifications. For instance, here's the effect of changing to Mr. Blaine's Big Brake Kit, from that spreadsheet:

View attachment 334819

Just under 7 pounds for much better brakes. A justifiable weight addition, in my opinion! However, I easily offset that "good" weight added, by replacing the heavy rear bumper that the previous owner installed:

View attachment 334820

Side note - notice that is the unpainted bumper weight. I forgot to weigh it again after powder coating (shame on me!) Yes, paint adds significant weight to a vehicle. When I worked for a motorcycle roadrace team, we weighed a set of carbon fiber bodywork before and after paint and were astonished at the difference - several pounds! The entire motorcycle only weighed about 350 pounds, for perspective.

My LJ is far from done, and with many of the components already on the vehicle, I don't have their weights, yet. My grand total right now is an estimated addition of 446 pounds, for a much better vehicle. However, it will likely be considerably lower than that number once I get the mods done and the weights for the parts removed in that spreadsheet. Work continues, but never at a pace fast enough for my quest for information, knowledge, and experience...

To sum up - weight is incredibly important in vehicle performance, and you can't address it fully, if you don't weigh components and make decisions with weight in mind.

I can very likely make that net change on the brake kit move to less than stock brakes for the 16" kit if some additional expense is not much of an issue. Shouldn't be hard to find a suitable 2 piece rotor and hat set up and get that built. I won't move to the lighter aluminum calipers because by and large they suck, but a rotor is an easy way to save some weight. I'm not unfamiliar.

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Mine is around 4200ish last check. That's including tools and not my fat ass.

@rasband wow you are light, I came in at 4900# before I put my LJ on a diet.I do run a hard top which weighs 2-300#. I started going over everything and weighing cost vs weight savings. I removed rear bumper and spare tire carrier and installed smaller bumper and moryde reinforcement (30-50lbs saving) .I modified my ps rocker guards to mount correctly and cut excess metal off (5-7 lbs). I replaced Nth degree trans & engine skid with a savvy unit (25-30 lbs). My next is gas tank skid I’m looking to replace with Saavy unit.
 
A few years ago there was a guy on Rubicon owners forum that replaced all his steel skids, corner guards sliders etc with aluminum parts and claimed his Jeep lost around 500 lbs.

I know when I added my Genright Fenders I had originally ordered the steel one because of the price difference. When they arrived I said holly shit these things are heavy. I returned them and re-ordered the Alum. ones and it turns out the weight difference between steel and alum. was 24 lbs for the pair. The rear corner's I saved an extra 49 lbs, and 30 lbs for the rear fenders. So that's 103 lbs savings between steel vs alum. Ia also dumped my HEAVY Rock Hard 4x4 rear bumpers for a Savvy bumper. Rock Hard w/ Rack and Hylft 235 lbs no gone added 35 lbs for bumper and 9 lbs for HD hinges so that's another 191 lbs savings so overall about 294 lbs shaved. Now my Dr. just told me I needed to loose weight also so I have dropped 9 lbs and have a lot more to go so I got that going for me. :ROFLMAO: so as of today the jeep w/ me is down 301 lbs
 
@rasband wow you are light, I came in at 4900# before I put my LJ on a diet.I do run a hard top which weighs 2-300#. I started going over everything and weighing cost vs weight savings. I removed rear bumper and spare tire carrier and installed smaller bumper and moryde reinforcement (30-50lbs saving) .I modified my ps rocker guards to mount correctly and cut excess metal off (5-7 lbs). I replaced Nth degree trans & engine skid with a savvy unit (25-30 lbs). My next is gas tank skid I’m looking to replace with Saavy unit.

I think that weight was before I put on the corners, rub rails and highlines. I'll be back by that scale in the coming weeks hopefully and will see. But I run trail doors most the time, aluminum most things, really low profile bumpers (I'd love to swap my front for the savvy), no back seat, and a tool kit really specific to my rig without a bunch of extras.
 
I think that weight was before I put on the corners, rub rails and highlines. I'll be back by that scale in the coming weeks hopefully and will see. But I run trail doors most the time, aluminum most things, really low profile bumpers (I'd love to swap my front for the savvy), no back seat, and a tool kit really specific to my rig without a bunch of extras.

My rig is not just a trail/ rock crawler, I like to go exploring so I kept the hard top and full doors. I also tow it behind my motorhome so I have a heavier bumper to attach the tow bar to. I also modified the front bumper to attach the winch and removed the winch plate. That was around a 20 lbs saving. I too have no rear seat and a specific tool kit and have changed to mostly soft shackles. I do carry a box of spares for when I am In remote areas. Every little bit helps I’m finding out.
 
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after you get above 350 h.p. in a TJ you can stop paying so much attention to added weight !!!!

Yes and no. What you can't ignore is no matter how well your rig works now, it will work better just by cutting weight. There are several reasons the Savvy race TJ Unlimited stomped a mudhole in everyone else's efforts and coming in at a svelte 4200 in race trim certainly added to them.
 
after you get above 350 h.p. in a TJ you can stop paying so much attention to added weight !!!!

Horsepower wouldn't change my motivations to keep the weight down.

Yup. Speaking from personal experience - with way, way more than 350hp - weight still matters.
 
Yup. Speaking from personal experience - with way, way more than 350hp - weight still matters.

have you done an empty to loaded comparison on any adventures? you would have a significant weight difference i'd guess.

i'm actually considering carrying a little red wagon with the big rubber dirt wheels on the trailer or in the truck bed. if i'm within a couple miles of the trailer i'd rather walk back for big tools and spare parts than carry it out in the rig.
 
Yes and no. What you can't ignore is no matter how well your rig works now, it will work better just by cutting weight. There are several reasons the Savvy race TJ Unlimited stomped a mudhole in everyone else's efforts and coming in at a svelte 4200 in race trim certainly added to them.

Given my obsession with weight, and having a general sense of what they had to upgrade to race, I still marvel at this accomplishment. It's a number I would not have thought possible! (y)
 
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Given my obsession with weight, and having a general sense of what they had to upgrade to race, I still marvel at this accomplishment. It's a number I would not have thought possible! (y)
They took the windshield frame and removed all the metal from it except the outer shell. When they were done with it, it weighed less than 10 lbs. That alone saved about 75 lbs.
No body mounts. Take a full set of body mounts and toss them in a pile and weigh them.
Remove the entire dash, HVAC box, AC coil, all the AC bits, AC condenser, plumbing, receiver dryer, etc. and that is a considerable weight savings.
Remove stock half doors and replace them with Savvy trail doors screwed in place with the latches removed.
Replace the stock B pillar with smaller diameter .120 wall tube. The overall cage weighs more than that but dumping the stock stuff goes a long way towards balancing out the weight of a full cage.
Go through the entire tub and remove every double wall layer of sheet metal.
Take the stock grill shell and remove everything but the outer skin that you see. The rest goes away.
I cut every bracket off of the frame that wouldn't be used. Sway bar link tabs, gone. All the stock control arm mounts, spring perches, etc. gone and replaced with lighter options where possible.
Rear crossmember and short section of frame replaced with a piece of 1.5" .120 wall tube.
All of the OEM wire harness was removed and only wires went back all new to make the rig run and work.

The cage was originally done by a shop for them. They went through it and removed stuff that was extra and left just enough to pass tech and race.
 
They took the windshield frame and removed all the metal from it except the outer shell. When they were done with it, it weighed less than 10 lbs. That alone saved about 75 lbs.
No body mounts. Take a full set of body mounts and toss them in a pile and weigh them.
Remove the entire dash, HVAC box, AC coil, all the AC bits, AC condenser, plumbing, receiver dryer, etc. and that is a considerable weight savings.
Remove stock half doors and replace them with Savvy trail doors screwed in place with the latches removed.
Replace the stock B pillar with smaller diameter .120 wall tube. The overall cage weighs more than that but dumping the stock stuff goes a long way towards balancing out the weight of a full cage.
Go through the entire tub and remove every double wall layer of sheet metal.
Take the stock grill shell and remove everything but the outer skin that you see. The rest goes away.
I cut every bracket off of the frame that wouldn't be used. Sway bar link tabs, gone. All the stock control arm mounts, spring perches, etc. gone and replaced with lighter options where possible.
Rear crossmember and short section of frame replaced with a piece of 1.5" .120 wall tube.
All of the OEM wire harness was removed and only wires went back all new to make the rig run and work.

The cage was originally done by a shop for them. They went through it and removed stuff that was extra and left just enough to pass tech and race.

I suspected major work would have had to be done. Even with all that, given the axle weights, it's beyond impressive!
 
I suspected major work would have had to be done. Even with all that, given the axle weights, it's beyond impressive!

I'd have to go back and look it up but I seem to recall that they used fabricated housings with drop outs for at least the front. They went with very lightweight brakes, not effective, but very light. Don't forget they were on 35's and Falkens at that. Not a heavy tire at all. I won't say they paid attention to ounces but every fastener was cut to length so no extra was there any place they could.
 
They took the windshield frame and removed all the metal from it except the outer shell. When they were done with it, it weighed less than 10 lbs. That alone saved about 75 lbs.
No body mounts. Take a full set of body mounts and toss them in a pile and weigh them.
Remove the entire dash, HVAC box, AC coil, all the AC bits, AC condenser, plumbing, receiver dryer, etc. and that is a considerable weight savings.
Remove stock half doors and replace them with Savvy trail doors screwed in place with the latches removed.
Replace the stock B pillar with smaller diameter .120 wall tube. The overall cage weighs more than that but dumping the stock stuff goes a long way towards balancing out the weight of a full cage.
Go through the entire tub and remove every double wall layer of sheet metal.
Take the stock grill shell and remove everything but the outer skin that you see. The rest goes away.
I cut every bracket off of the frame that wouldn't be used. Sway bar link tabs, gone. All the stock control arm mounts, spring perches, etc. gone and replaced with lighter options where possible.
Rear crossmember and short section of frame replaced with a piece of 1.5" .120 wall tube.
All of the OEM wire harness was removed and only wires went back all new to make the rig run and work.

The cage was originally done by a shop for them. They went through it and removed stuff that was extra and left just enough to pass tech and race.

That is a crazy amount of work.

I'm intrigued by the "no body mounts" part. The tub went on the frame directly?