freedom_in_4low

I'm a rooster illusion
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with Mopar discontinued and no clear aftermarket choice I decided to compare some of the mainstream aftermarket options.

For the first one, I was going to try APDI (recently acquired and now Agility) because based on it's photos it looks most similar to the OE core - the plastic tank is a brownish, tan color. I'm also intrigued that the tubes look copper instead of aluminum. If it has quality turbulators that don't look like they'll come out, I plan to keep it, if not I'll send it back and try another.

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I bought through an Amazon listing that clearly listed Agility 9010450 and I received an Agility box and part number but inside was a Spectra Premium 93028 which looks exactly the same as all the all-aluminum, black tank Chinesium seen everywhere else!

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Fin per inch: 26.5
fin pattern: flat with basic enhancement, lancing to allow airflow to bypass clogged fin which is pretty common in clog-prone very tight fin spacing
tube count: 28 total, 7 per row
configuration: 4 row double fed
tube OD: 7mm (guessing a little here, measures 6.5 x 7.3 in the u-bend due to deformation, but 7mm is common in the industry)
tube pattern: 24mm between tube centers, with alternating 7mm, then 11mm between row centerlines
turbulators: cheap white plastic with no retention, some are already sticking out of the tube and could very easily escape the core

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I've already processed the return for a refund on account of the item not being as described and ordered another one, through RockAuto this time. Hoping I'm not about to discover that Agility purchased APDI only to shut down production and partner with Spectra to provide the discontinued parts, much the way MotorRad bought Stant just to shut them down. Though since I haven't seen an Agility/APDI yet I have no idea whether it's worth getting upset about yet other than the colors look better in the photo.

The next one should be here on Thursday, I'll post my findings then. APDI is also the manufacturer of NAPA's house brand so if I get another Spectra I'll go see what NAPA has on the shelf, though it mysteriously costs almost double what it does on RockAuto.
 
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I was going to purchase one from performance radiator yesterday but either their website doesn't work correctly or the product is out of stock and it wouldn't let me continue with the purchase.

Interested. I really need to swap mine out while I already have the interior ripped out and windshield removed.
 
I was going to purchase one from performance radiator yesterday but either their website doesn't work correctly or the product is out of stock and it wouldn't let me continue with the purchase.

Interested. I really need to swap mine out while I already have the interior ripped out and windshield removed.

It's been doing that for months so I don't think it's the site. I did email them yesterday asking if it was ever gonna come back.

I'm not sure where the info came from that suggested they were better than anyone else but it looks just like everyone else's, and there's at least one report in another thread of one failing within a year. But I'm happy to take a look at one if I can get my hands on one, and anyone that has one is welcome to post the details here.
 
I'll check back here in 20 years to see if the aftermarket core lasted as long as the oem one. I don't think I'll live that long, so I'll have my ghost (or cat ) log in and check your results.
View attachment 434138

I'll be pretty surprised myself, but all I can do is evaluate some basic initial quality markers and hope they're indicative for long term.

Turbulators that are bound to escape and end up in my block are a non starter for me. Other things like fin density, fin profile, tube count etc play more toward performance but if a supplier put a little more cost into those aspects it may imply that they could have thrown a little extra into quality areas that I can't evaluate non-destructively, like tube thickness, or gasket material where the tank meets the end plate. Copper tubes would be an improvement in both performance and longevity.
 
I'll be pretty surprised myself, but all I can do is evaluate some basic initial quality markers and hope they're indicative for long term.

Turbulators that are bound to escape and end up in my block are a non starter for me. Other things like fin density, fin profile, tube count etc play more toward performance but if a supplier put a little more cost into those aspects it may imply that they could have thrown a little extra into quality areas that I can't evaluate non-destructively, like tube thickness, or gasket material where the tank meets the end plate. Copper tubes would be an improvement in both performance and longevity.

So true. Good evaluation. (y)
 
ok, well this one is a no go as well. It's datestamped from 2020 indicating that APDI/Agility has been ok with selling something using stock photos completely unrepresentative of the real thing.

At first glance it looks pretty much like the Spectra, and has some things in common but there's enough differences to give away that they didn't come from the same factory. The tube pattern is slightly different but not anything that would change performance. Fin density is much lower than the Spectra so I would not expect the output to be as hot.

Fin per inch: 19
fin pattern: flat with basic enhancement, lancing to allow airflow to bypass clogged fin which is pretty common in clog-prone very tight fin spacing
tube count: 28 total, 7 per row
configuration: 4 row double fed
tube OD: 7mm
tube pattern: 24mm between tube centers, 9mm between row centerlines
turbulators: cheap white plastic with no retention, some are already sticking out of the tube and could very easily escape the core

The tank looks to be molded with a little higher quality as the mold lines aren't as huge.

PXL_20230628_162530821.jpg


The core looks like trash, not only is the fin spacing larger but they did a crappy job retaining them against the tube sheet before expanding the tubes.

PXL_20230628_162502362.jpg


Fin enhancement is very similar but not identical to the Spectra.

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Same shitty turbulators.
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Between these two I would go with the Spectra, but the lack of retention on the turbulators kills both for me. The search continues.
 
I have a leaking heater core. Found it using the pressure tester, leaks when pressure applied.
As a geek who does not like simple solutions like replacing the heater core, what I add is added aux cooling system.
Basically a heat exchanger, through which the engine coolant flows.
The secondary flow is a separate coolant, into which I poured leak seal. The sock fart flow is driven by electric pump, and is not pressurized, as a result the heater core does not leak at all.
So, I have heat, do not need to replace heater core and the engine Cooling is not messed up with being unable to build proper pressure.
 
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I have a leaking heater core. Found it using the pressure tester, leaks when pressure applied.
As a geek who does not like simple solutions like replacing the heater core, what I add is added aux cooling system.
Basically a heat exchanger, through which the engine coolant flows.
The secondary flow is a separate coolant, into which I poured leak seal. The sock fart flow is driven by electric pump, and is not pressurized, as a result the heater core does not leak at all.
So, I have heat, do not need to replace heater core and the engine Cooling is not messed up with being unable to build proper pressure.

What did you use as the heat exchanger between the primary and secondary loops? Did you include any sort of tank to allow for thermal expansion of the secondary glycol loop? I would love to see photos of the install.

added bonus is if you turn off the pump when you don't need heat, you don't have that heat added to the HVAC box during the summer.
 
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I have a leaking heater core. Found it using the pressure tester, leaks when pressure applied.
As a geek who does not like simple solutions like replacing the heater core, what I add is added aux cooling system.
Basically a heat exchanger, through which the engine coolant flows.
The secondary flow is a separate coolant, into which I poured leak seal. The sock fart flow is driven by electric pump, and is not pressurized, as a result the heater core does not leak at all.
So, I have heat, do not need to replace heater core and the engine Cooling is not messed up with being unable to build proper pressure.

Sounds like an excellent and innovative approach for warmer climates, such as yours. I'm worried about it not being efficient enough to be effective in sub zero temps.
 
I have a leaking heater core. Found it using the pressure tester, leaks when pressure applied.
As a geek who does not like simple solutions like replacing the heater core, what I add is added aux cooling system.
Basically a heat exchanger, through which the engine coolant flows.
The secondary flow is a separate coolant, into which I poured leak seal. The sock fart flow is driven by electric pump, and is not pressurized, as a result the heater core does not leak at all.
So, I have heat, do not need to replace heater core and the engine Cooling is not messed up with being unable to build proper pressure.

I would like to understand more about this.
 
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What did you use as the heat exchanger between the primary and secondary loops? Did you include any sort of tank to allow for thermal expansion of the secondary glycol loop? I would love to see photos of the install.

added bonus is if you turn off the pump when you don't need heat, you don't have that heat added to the HVAC box during the summer.

Let me take pics. I do have expansion tank. Electric pump is controlled, so I can shut it down if I want to.
I also it for secondary cooling, like add on coolers, this way it helps the radiator here in heat of Texas.
 
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Sounds like an excellent and innovative approach for warmer climates, such as yours. I'm worried about it not being efficient enough to be effective in sub zero temps.

I did some measurements. The temperature in the secondary loop is identical to the primary loop. The water flow by electric pump is lower, because I auxiliary electric pump for some German car (they have heater core with its own electric pump, for improved efficiency), and it will pump less coolant than mechanical one in TJ. But, when I ran in the winter (as far it goes in Texas) it was hot, really hot. As hot as factory.
 
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Sounds like an excellent and innovative approach for warmer climates, such as yours. I'm worried about it not being efficient enough to be effective in sub zero temps.

If the heat exchanger is big enough and piped for counterflow it could get the secondary loop outlet to within a couple of degrees of the primary inlet, and certainly warmer than the primary outlet. When the heater core itself is running a 160+ temperature difference (195 coolant vs 35 ambient), a couple of degrees won't be noticeable.

I did some measurements. The temperature in the secondary loop is identical to the primary loop. The water flow by electric pump is lower, because I auxiliary electric pump for some German car (they have heater core with its own electric pump, for improved efficiency), and it will pump less coolant than mechanical one in TJ. But, when I ran in the winter (as far it goes in Texas) it was hot, really hot. As hot as factory.

To be literally identical would violate thermodynamics but practically speaking I believe you that it's close enough within measurement precision and certainly for perceived heater performance. Bravo on the outside-the-box thinking. What's this German car that the pump came from? I've seen electric water pumps but they were auxiliary for cooling the turbo when the engine was shut off.
 
I would like to understand more about this.
The heat exchanger is liquid to liquid exchanger. Primary loop is connected to engine, as the original heater would be. Engine heats it up.
The secondary loop has independent coolant, and is not pressurized, it has a breather, like the diff or the transmission has.
The electric pump pumps the coolant In the secondary loop. No pressure built. Leaking heater core was plugged with leak seal, and this leak seal never reached the engine, as it lives in the secondary loop.
The expansion tank in the secondary loop provide enough expansion space, so that this thing does not boil over.

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To be literally identical would violate thermodynamics but practically speaking I believe you that it's close enough within measurement precision and certainly for perceived heater performance.
Don't be a grammar nazi. The heat exchange don't have enough surface area or any airflow it actually impact the temperature. By itself it acts as a capacitor in the thermal equation.
 
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What's this German car that the pump came from? I've seen electric water pumps but they were auxiliary for cooling the turbo when the engine was shut off.
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