Another AndyG Business Adventure

[AndyG]

My construction company focuses entirely on residential remodels which consist of bathrooms, kitchens and whole house remodels.

Last year we under took a bathroom remodel for a couple- The wife exhibited some behavior that did give me the impression that she could be indecisive and I priced the work accordingly.

As a rule of thumb I do not do business with people that do not have economy of motion. Economy of motion is when people will write you a check and make decisions and get out of the way and let you help them.


Into the job, it was apparent I was right about her and I learned her son had been murdered and she was still dealing with tremendous grief as well as tons of other psychological issues and also seem to be pretty heavily medicated at times. I tried to be as kind as possible, at all times.

To give you an idea how this displayed itself, It took her about six months to figure out how to size and arrange the vanity drawer fronts. I finally cut plywood to size and took it over there and they put it on the cabinets with Velcro. Whatever it takes.

Aside from that the real underlying difficulty was they had a tendency to change things and not realize the impact of the changes- This can create some serious problems.

For instance we installed heated tile floors and we are not allowed to run the element under any kind of structure such as a shower seat-it overheats. Once all the tile work was done she decided she did not want seat and that created a cold spot on the floor.

They also decided to dramatically widen the shower opening and the design for doorless shower became impossible because the shower could not contain the water.

I had told them from the beginning that I felt like a glass panel and door was essential and budgeted that in the contract in writing. When they made the change we reiterated that and talked about several scenarios of how to arrange the glass.

Once they began using the shower they decided they did not want glass. It would not work, just as I told them. Water got out.


At that point they wanted me to change all the tile, the heat system, and slope the floor -and I submitted them with a price of $9200 since these changes were created by decisions they made.

Keep in mind we’re not talking about just any kind of tile installation and we’re talking about a customer that things are probably going to get worse if you try to do more-

Well the husband came back to me explaining to me that we had neglected to do the job as they wanted and that I had failed to supervise the tile work for doorless installation and the cost was going to be largely my responsibility.

Oh boy did he get a surprise.

I’m going to stop at this point and say that I am extremely fair to customers and that I am the first to quickly amend things that we do wrong. I’m not saying that to make you guys think I’m great- I’m saying that because that’s what gets me paid and loved by the market - And making it very easy for clients to get you to do the right thing makes for a great reputation. There’s more to life than doing the right thing, you have to do it gracefully and willingly...If you don’t that means you end up getting forced to do it and that means you didn’t want to do the right thing to start with.

So here is how it played out-

Note: The first rule when people want to meet you halfway is remember they’re probably a pretty bad judge of distance.

Also there has been rumblings that she wanted to do completely different tile...hmmm

My take on the situation was that they wanted to hang the financial burden on me in order to get what they wanted and correct the consequences of their decisions-

So here is what I did-

First I completely withdrew the offer to make the changes.

I clearly told them they had lost me trying to blame me for something that was not my fault and presented documentation of the contract with the glass door included and images of how the shower was originally rendered by the designer.

I also told them I was not going to negotiate for something I did not need or want to do to start with.


Then I told them they had two choices -

1. We would complete the job per the contract, and provide the door as budgeted.

2. Or we would be glad to release the permit and mutually terminate the contract in spirit of mutual cooperation and forgo the balance they owe my company- this is fair for all parties and they can easily pay for completion of the work with the funds available.

Then I told him please do not mistake this as a negotiation,
These are your options, and I included my attorney and told them that I did that only in case they want to terminate the contract.

I also told him that everything would be in writing from this point forward and that I would not accept any calls or they would not be any personal meetings in any work we performed would be performed to my standards by people and not me personally.

Keep in mind these people have been wearing me out for a year- A good bathroom remodel might take 12 to 14 weeks if it’s pretty involved- And a lot of them can be done in 6 to 8 with the permit process we have locally.

A year is pretty crazy.

I charged enough money for the job that I would run around in the yard naked for what I got paid- But I’m not going to go deeper in and give it all back, given the circumstances.

One thing that happens to you as a business owner and a contractor is people like this can consume so much time and energy you can’t focus on the good people-

At the same time you can’t abandon the project and just stop working-

So how will it play out from here?

I really don’t care. I’ve been through enough that I know how these situations will go and I know that our position and documentation is enough to stand up in court- And also that it is strong enough that it would never go to court because any good attorney would tell them you do not have a leg to stand on.

Are there any lessons to be learned here?

Well - it’s very important to put things in writing and the root word of the word contractor is contract. The documentation will be my saving grace, And we will certainly give them a great job if they will let us, at the same time we are happy to move on and care for other clients that can make decisions and help us move forward.


I’m going to add that I’ve seen business owners let people run over them. I’ve also seen the same people go out of business.

 

[LJBean]

My construction company focuses entirely on residential remodels which consist of bathrooms, kitchens and whole house remodels.

Last year we under took a bathroom remodel for a couple- The wife exhibited some behavior that did give me the impression that she could be indecisive and I priced the work accordingly.

As a rule of thumb I do not do business with people that do not have economy of motion. Economy of motion is when people will write you a check and make decisions and get out of the way and let you help them.


Into the job, it was apparent I was right about her and I learned her son had been murdered and she was still dealing with tremendous grief as well as tons of other psychological issues and also seem to be pretty heavily medicated at times. I tried to be as kind as possible, at all times.

To give you an idea how this displayed itself, It took her about six months to figure out how to size and arrange the vanity drawer fronts. I finally cut plywood to size and took it over there and they put it on the cabinets with Velcro. Whatever it takes.

Aside from that the real underlying difficulty was they had a tendency to change things and not realize the impact of the changes- This can create some serious problems.

For instance we installed heated tile floors and we are not allowed to run the element under any kind of structure such as a shower seat- Once all the tile work was done she decided she did not want seat and that created a cold spot on the floor.

They also decided to dramatically widen the shower opening and the design for doorless shower became impossible because the shower could not contain the water.

I had told them from the beginning that I felt like a glass panel and door was essential and budgeted that in the contract in writing. When they made the change we reiterated that and talked about several scenarios of how to arrange the glass.

Once they began using the shower they decided they did not want glass. It would not work, just as I told them. Water got out.


At that point they wanted me to change all the tile, the heat system, and slope the floor -and I submitted them with a price of $9200 since these changes were created by decisions they made.

Keep in mind we’re not talking about just any kind of tile installation and we’re talking about a customer that things are probably going to get worse if you try to do more-

Well the husband came back to me explaining to me that we had neglected to do the job as they wanted and that I had failed to supervise the tile work for doorless installation and the cost was going to be largely my responsibility.

Oh boy did he get a surprise.

I’m going to stop at this point and say that I am extremely fair to customers and that I am the first to quickly amend things that we do wrong. I’m not saying that to make you guys think I’m great- I’m saying that because that’s what gets me paid and loved by the market - And making it very easy for clients to get you to do the right thing makes for a great reputation.

So here is how it played out-

Note: The first rule when people want to meet you halfway is remember they’re probably a pretty bad judge of distance.

Also there has been rumblings that she wanted to do completely different tile...hmmm

My take on the situation was that they wanted to hang the financial burden on me in order to get what they wanted and correct the consequences of their decisions-

So here is what I did-

First I completely withdrew the offer to make the changes.

I clearly told them they had lost me trying to blame me for something that was not my fault and presented documentation of the contract with the glass door included and images of how the shower was originally rendered by the designer.

I also told them I was not going to negotiate for something I did not need or want to do to start with.


Then I told them they had two choices -

1. We would complete the job per the contract, and provide the door as budgeted.

2. Or we would be glad to release the permit and mutually terminate the contract in spirit of mutual cooperation and forgo the balance they owe my company- this is fair for all parties and they can easily pay for completion of the work with the funds available.

Then I told him please do not mistake this as a negotiation,
These are your options, and I included my attorney and told them that I did that only in case they want to terminate the contract.

I also told him that everything would be in writing from this point forward and that I would not except any calls or they would not be any personal meetings in any work we performed would be performed to my standards by people and not me personally.

Keep in mind these people have been wearing me out for a year- A good bathroom remodel might take 12 to 14 weeks if it’s pretty involved- And a lot of them can be done in 6 to 8 with the permit process we have locally.

A year is pretty crazy.

I charged enough money for the job that I would run around in the yard naked for what I got paid- But I’m not going to go deeper in and give it all back, given the circumstances.

One thing that happens to you as a business owner and a contractor is people like this can consume so much time and energy you can’t focus on the good people-

At the same time you can’t abandon the project and just stop going-

So how will it play out from here?

I really don’t care. I’ve been through enough that I know how these situations will go and I know that our position and documentation is enough to stand up in court- And also that it is strong enough that it would never go to court because any good attorney would tell them you do not have a leg to stand on.

Are there any lessons to be learned here?

Well - it’s very important to put things in writing and the root word of the word contractor is contract. The documentation will be my saving grace, And we will certainly give them a great job if they will let us, at the same time we are happy to move on and care for other clients that can make decisions and help us move forward.

I completely agree with your approach. You offered them 2 very reasonable options on moving forward. I'm an engineer, not a contractor, but my approach would be exactly the same. It's all about following the contract!

 

[AndyG]

I completely agree with your approach. You offered them 2 very reasonable options on moving forward. I'm an engineer, not a contractor, but my approach would be exactly the same. It's all about following the contract!

Thanks-

I realized that my position may seemed a little bit harsh-

But when you step back and look at the fact that we’ve been there a year you can sort of see this is just not getting done-

And when they started taking the position of trying to get what they wanted at my expense and trying to manipulate the facts, It did not end my obligation to do the work and fulfill the contract but it pretty much ended any potential future relationship- At that point I’m like “these people are not going be clients of ours, we’re going to get out of here or make them want us to get out of here”-

He was blatantly lying when he said that they had specified a doorless shower from the start- I told him I think the truth was they liked the idea of a doorless shower but they made changes that prevented it from happening. The truth is they are completely winging it and don’t know what they want- They just sort of figure out what they don’t want once they see it. That is like lifting your Jeep 4” to figure out you want 2” of lift.

Really if you get technical the bathroom doesn’t even resemble the original plan- because she just kept changing, everything, every day. I think it took like 6 to 8 weeks to place the lights in the bathroom- We normally get that figured out in about 10 minutes.

Here is the real deal- I have suppliers and employees and families and other customers counting on me to make things happen- These people are draining my time and energy and I’m stopping it.

His wife said something hateful a while back- And I told him right then- “ You do not want to lose my good will, what your wife is doing is wrong.”

He is her handler. Things got better, but this was inevitable.

Thank you for responding- Probably at a subconscious level I’m seeking a little affirmation that I’ve not turned into a monster

 

[Rickyd]

Some customers really are aweful.i do the agreed on minimum and run away when i realize that.then never accept their business again

 

[Mhass]

Nawp, not a monster. Many many people are simply unreasonable and unpleasant.
Contracts exist for a reason and they help stop this kind of behavior or at least mitigate the extent to which it can damage either party.
I am sorry for that ladies loss but nothing entitles another person to cause everyone they touch grief or pain.
I THINK I drooled over pics of your work trailer. If that was yours, I can tell just from that that your work is top tier.
You're good. More reasonable and accommodating than they have a right to expect.
Hold fast.

 

[taylormade73]

Andy, I think you have handled it gracefully and justly. In my our experience, the clients that are the biggest headaches during projects are mostly those we sold at the highest margins. That has become the main reason our internal compensation structure has been capped at a specific margin.

 

[AndyG]

Nawp, not a monster. Many many people are simply unreasonable and unpleasant.
Contracts exist for a reason and they help stop this kind of behavior or at least mitigate the extent to which it can damage either party.
I am sorry for that ladies loss but nothing entitles another person to cause everyone they touch grief or pain.
I THINK I drooled over pics of your work trailer. If that was yours, I can tell just from that that your work is top tier.
You're good. More reasonable and accommodating than they have a right to expect.
Hold fast.

Nailed it. And thank you I think my work trailer personifies my mentality towards what I do.

 

[AndyG]

Andy, I think you have handled it gracefully and justly. In my our experience, the clients that are the biggest headaches during projects are mostly those we sold at the highest margins. That has become the main reason our internal compensation structure has been capped at a specific margin.

You know it just occurred to me that people that are paying a premium price sense that and they feel entitled. I appreciate you saying that and I’ve noticed if people will stand back and look at the big picture like that you’ll see trends that will be very helpful.



At the same time had I charged less, it only would have got worse faster- The money bought them a lot of time and patience with me.

I saw a statistic a while back where jobs that have excessive change orders I have the highest tendency to end up in litigation.

I think the bottom line is customers that really don’t know what they want are likely not going to get it. Because no one knows what to give them.

You cannot possibly believe the things this woman would worry about- She wanted a stained vanity but she didn’t want to see the look of wood on the side. She is the kind of person that would want a different color carpet pad under the carpet. Once she showed me a picture and it was insistent on any particular sconce layout- And I was showing her where these things for pushing the sink and door center over in the picture and she wanted to argue. At some point along the way about everyone that works for me has been about ready to kill her.

The most amazing thing was in her career she was a court reporter. Now she can’t even articulate a couple of sentences coherently I can’t imagine recording a dui case.

 

[AndyG]

When it rains it pours.

I’ve got a customer right now with cancer and she misunderstood or missed an email and thought the job was costing about $7000 less than it is.

Anyway in addition to that to build the job to her specifications we are struggling with a containment issue of water in the shower because of the dynamics not working out that you need to make a shower work curbless- In some fashion you have to have the right amount of slope , water pressure, a tile that is conducive to what you’re doing and an arrangement of glass or walls to contain the water if area is an issue- - Each one of these factors can vary based on the size, configuration, and the direction of water spray.

It’s not horrible but in her case we don’t have one thing at all compensating for the other-we knew it was marginal and you don’t know on some til they are used. Often clients insist on too many things that are a bad combination.

Her husband starts going bananas. Going to get a second opinion, etc.

Finally I told him basically “you don’t have a shower to worry about- I do. Until you pay me the shower does not belong to you. Right now it is my problem and we have never left a client with a job that doesn’t work” Within 24 hours we had recognized the issue- diagnosed and ordered tile to reconfigure the slope of the floor- In our industry that is unheard of to see a contractor respond that fast.

I need a jeep day. And evening........

 

[Mhass]

When it rains it pours.

I’ve got a customer right now with cancer and she misunderstood or missed an email and thought the job was costing about $7000 less than it is.

Anyway in addition to that to build the job to her specifications we are struggling with a containment issue of water in the shower because of the dynamics not working out that you need to make a shower work curbless- In some fashion you have to have the right amount of slope , water pressure, a tile that is conducive to what you’re doing and an arrangement of glass or walls to contain the water if area is an issue- - Each one of these factors can vary based on the size, configuration, and the direction of water spray.

It’s not horrible but in her case we don’t have one thing at all compensating for the other-

Her husband starts going bananas. Going to get a second opinion, etc.

Finally I told him basically “you don’t have a shower to worry about- I do. Until you pay me the shower does not belong to you. Right now it is my problem and we have never left a client with a job that doesn’t work” Within 24 hours we had recognized the issue- diagnosed and ordered tile to reconfigure the slope of the floor- In our industry that is unheard of to see a contractor respond that fast.

I need a jeep day. And evening........

What you need is to drive to VA and finish my master bath remodel!
I pay cash!
Actually, i guess I should quit dickin around on the forum and get to work.
I can't install the SYE and axle upgrade until the bathroom is finished.

 

[AndyG]

What you need is to drive to VA and finish my master bath remodel!
I pay cash!
Actually, i guess I should quit dickin around on the forum and get to work.
I can't install the SYE and axle upgrade until the bathroom is finished.

Nothing like a little motivation or reward to get something done!

I am actually headed to my own house with the trailer to refurb my deck- And man it is gorgeous down here I would much rather be out in the jeep.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

You're in the right as far as I'm concerned. We've talked about this here before, but I wish my GC had been even a little fraction as intentional and conscientious as you. Our problem was that I was the one trying to get things down on paper, I was the one thinking the process through and trying to get ahead of issues before they surfaced and the GC would just wing it and act annoyed when I tried to bring their attention to something like I had insulted them for not assuming they would have known, but when I backed off and let it play out, they proved me right every time. We had no change orders because they designed as they built instead of beforehand and that drove me crazy, but there were things that had to be redone because it was just wrong. Since they were so resistant to making detailed plans I just had to revert to having everything in emails and texts that I would later screenshot to send along with "this is what we discussed, but is not what was done".

I don't know if it's true but I'm telling myself a competent contractor would have cost more money and some savings is what I bought for all the frustration. But I legitimately believe it gave me an anxiety disorder because there are marked differences (for the worse) in the way I handle large projects and stress vs the way I've known myself to handle them for my entire adult life up to this point, so even if I saved a few grand it probably wasn't worth it.

 

[JustDandee]

As I like to say:
The best part of the job is the people, the worst part of the job…is the people.

When you work with people they just come in all shape, sizes, and character. There is time when it’s just was a honest pleasure and have made personal friends, then there is times I am looking for the nearest off ramp that I could professionally take.

 

[B1Toad]

Andy, you sound a lot like me. I ran my electrical contracting business following the same principles as you. We were a small company, 3 guys. Our reputation was such that we were always in demand and when I retired some were disappointed and some were downright pissed about it like I was abandoning them. The advantage I had over you is I only did electrical, and most of that is hidden behind the scenes. Still, we had to carefully plan and discuss locations of everything and we had to pull teeth sometimes to get appliance information from the homeowners so we could rough in accordingly. Lighting was probably the biggest headache and for that reason I rarely supplied fans and lighting, choosing that was the owner's responsibility which relieved me of any liability and warranty on the choice of product. Sounds like you have a successful business and will build yourself a good retirement.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

we had to pull teeth sometimes to get appliance information from the homeowners so we could rough in accordingly.

At least a step ahead of mine...they (both plumbers and electrical) just roughed in in a random spot and came back to move it at installation. I provided all the documentation to the GC 6 weeks before either of them set foot on site. I took for granted that someone would have looked at it, so I didn't check it until I saw the back of the stove and realized the gas line was in the wrong spot and the electric was where the gas needed to be. When they finally came to fix it they were trying to get in the head of whoever wrote the document and decide for themselves where stuff could go, and fortunately I was there to put a quick stop to that nonsense.

I could be wrong, but the impression I get is that the no-talent bottom of the barrel workers end up in new construction where it's easier to get away with being incompetent, if not outright crooked.

 

[B1Toad]

At least a step ahead of mine...they (both plumbers and electrical) just roughed in in a random spot and came back to move it at installation. I provided all the documentation to the GC 6 weeks before either of them set foot on site. I took for granted that someone would have looked at it, so I didn't check it until I saw the back of the stove and realized the gas line was in the wrong spot and the electric was where the gas needed to be. When they finally came to fix it they were trying to get in the head of whoever wrote the document and decide for themselves where stuff could go, and fortunately I was there to put a quick stop to that nonsense.

I could be wrong, but the impression I get is that the no-talent bottom of the barrel workers end up in new construction where it's easier to get away with being incompetent, if not outright crooked.

When we couldn't get the info we would leave the wire in the wall and cut it in at trim out. We would do the same with ceiling lights and pendants over islands, leave the wires in the joists, take pics and cut them in after drywall. Sometimes the island would move and this way we were assured of getting them centered.

 

[AndyG]

You're in the right as far as I'm concerned. We've talked about this here before, but I wish my GC had been even a little fraction as intentional and conscientious as you. Our problem was that I was the one trying to get things down on paper, I was the one thinking the process through and trying to get ahead of issues before they surfaced and the GC would just wing it and act annoyed when I tried to bring their attention to something like I had insulted them for not assuming they would have known, but when I backed off and let it play out, they proved me right every time. We had no change orders because they designed as they built instead of beforehand and that drove me crazy, but there were things that had to be redone because it was just wrong. Since they were so resistant to making detailed plans I just had to revert to having everything in emails and texts that I would later screenshot to send along with "this is what we discussed, but is not what was done".

I don't know if it's true but I'm telling myself a competent contractor would have cost more money and some savings is what I bought for all the frustration. But I legitimately believe it gave me an anxiety disorder because there are marked differences (for the worse) in the way I handle large projects and stress vs the way I've known myself to handle them for my entire adult life up to this point, so even if I saved a few grand it probably wasn't worth it.

Quality is never an accident.

And I get it.....things like this will change you. I am a very different person than I was 10 years ago- my bull detector is terribly sensitive.

I’m all for working things out as you go- but not creating things then working them out- that is poor job set up.


Pain molds us. The key is to manage it to make us better, not bitter. And that is easy to sit here and type in- but hard, hard to put into practice.



“Discipline ways ounces- regret weighs tons”- Jim Rohn

 

[AndyG]

Andy, you sound a lot like me. I ran my electrical contracting business following the same principles as you. We were a small company, 3 guys. Our reputation was such that we were always in demand and when I retired some were disappointed and some were downright pissed about it like I was abandoning them. The advantage I had over you is I only did electrical, and most of that is hidden behind the scenes. Still, we had to carefully plan and discuss locations of everything and we had to pull teeth sometimes to get appliance information from the homeowners so we could rough in accordingly. Lighting was probably the biggest headache and for that reason I rarely supplied fans and lighting, choosing that was the owner's responsibility which relieved me of any liability and warranty on the choice of product. Sounds like you have a successful business and will build yourself a good retirement.

Thanks for your commitment and this post.

Good electricians are invaluable.

Finish work does get “picked” a lot more.

 

[Zorba]

I wish you had done my MBR extension last year.

OTOH, the plumbers that replaced my cast iron sewers - and copper fresh - were fantastic. They did what they said they were going to do when they said they were going to do it. In other words, they got the job done on time.

 

[AndyG]

I wish you had done my MBR extension last year.

OTOH, the plumbers that replaced my cast iron sewers - and copper fresh - were fantastic. They did what they said they were going to do when they said they were going to do it. In other words, they got the job done on time.

People who work trade specific are the best- the generalists knows too little about too much-

Doing my deck refab now-

To direct work, plan the alterations my wife added, coordinate the material and air up trailer tires and plan the next move while you break your body is a challenge and part of why most quit or fail. This is only a diy job, let alone our real work in process.