Anyone use headers on their TJ?

[Head Lice]

Everyone seems preoccupied with horsepower numbers .....
Have a look at the shape of the torque curve .... does it 'come on' sooner, and stay 'fat' throughout the rpm range ?
This is the seat of the pants feel .....
Have spent a lot of time on the rollers .... fattening the torque curve. Horsepower numbers really don't mean much.

 

[jeep_boss]

Everyone seems preoccupied with horsepower numbers .....
Have a look at the shape of the torque curve .... does it 'come on' sooner, and stay 'fat' throughout the rpm range ?
This is the seat of the pants feel .....
Have spent a lot of time on the rollers .... fattening the torque curve. Horsepower numbers really don't mean much.

This x2

 

[jgaz]

There's nothing quite as accurate or reliable as a well calibrated butt dyno.

Butt dyno, aka. Assometer

Assometer

 

[weldedcambolt]

When i put on the stainless lines, i didnt think about better performance, i only read that afterwards, that some were saying they were better performers. I was thinking about trying to prevent the rusted lines that blew on me going down the road, an seeing that i am in a salt rust zone. So, in regards to the SS lines for preventing rusting out? Is there longer lastingness with the SS lines. I dont think the hoses will last that much longer than the normal hoses. but my thinking was they would not rust out as fast? is this correct to say? I think i replaced 5 sets of rusted steel lines in the last two years on peoples cars around here. will SS save me from that nightmare. I even got the 200 dollar steel stainless tube flarer

 

[tquig01]

The common reason given is S/S do not swell as much as the OEM rubber flex hoses do. Sounds legit, right? The problem is they are not quite rubber like a balloon, they are rubber like the power steering pressure hose from the pump and in stock form are tested to exceed 3000 psi. Being the inquisitive sort and having access to a brake system that put out nearly 3000 psi, I hooked up each, checked the expansion with a digital caliper and found that both swell exactly the same amount at 3000 psi. About .0005 or so.

I am a geek at heart so I appreciate your empirical testing vs. "feelings". As I mentioned, I was trying to apply the same benefits of SS lines on a sport bike to a TJ. With bikes, particularly when ridden hard on a race track (many yrs experience), brake fade was enemy #1. The small volume of fluid in a bike's manual brake system along with the repeated hard braking causes fluid temperatures to spike. We even used special fluid with a higher boiling point. The difference between SS and rubber was super obvious because even after a couple warm-up laps the rubber lines become heat soaked and expand. Because rubber lines are made of multiple layers of rubber and synthetic weave (like Jerry's picture), the outside diameter may not expand, but the inside volume increases as the multiple rubber layers compress under pressure. SS lines do not have multiple layers inside them so there is not as much opportunity for the internal volume to increase. Given this application, I was hoping to see some kind of benefit but in thinking it through, any benefit of SS is overcome by the much larger overall volume of fluid in these systems along with the additional benefit of the brake booster and the fact that they aren't under the same braking demands. So, it makes sense that there isn't any perceived advantage to SS- looks like the Jeep is going to empty another pocket! Thanks for the info and sorry for hijacking the thread

 

[weldedcambolt]

No hijacking the tread, more info no matter which way it leads, is a benefit to all. Now, on that note, tquig01, is ther a benefit for the rust factor. Now, after i installed, the ss lines an hoses, the pedal is no sponge an feels like it will thru you thru the windshield. But, the lines taken off looked to be factory an with 180000 or so on them, i am sure they were easily expanded, an whether it was ss or stock lines, it was going to improve the spongy.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/s...opping-with-stainless-braided-ss-brake-lines/
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html
http://www.mytractorforum.com/112-trucks/64808-i-need-brake-line-gas-line-wont-rust-winter-f350.html
http://sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-doesnt-stainless-stee/
https://sharpologist.com/2016/06/stainless-steel-vs-rust.html - this debate spans far an wide

 

[mrblaine]

No hijacking the tread, more info no matter which way it leads, is a benefit to all. Now, on that note, tquig01, is ther a benefit for the rust factor. Now, after i installed, the ss lines an hoses, the pedal is no sponge an feels like it will thru you thru the windshield. But, the lines taken off looked to be factory an with 180000 or so on them, i am sure they were easily expanded, an whether it was ss or stock lines, it was going to improve the spongy.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/s...opping-with-stainless-braided-ss-brake-lines/
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html
http://www.mytractorforum.com/112-trucks/64808-i-need-brake-line-gas-line-wont-rust-winter-f350.html
http://sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-doesnt-stainless-stee/
https://sharpologist.com/2016/06/stainless-steel-vs-rust.html - this debate spans far an wide

There is no actual debate. Confusion and repetition of myth maybe, but the test shows both to expand the same amount under the same pressure so the premise is flawed. If the question were to be correct, it would be if I put viable OEM hoses on versus new SS, will I notice a difference and the answer is no.

To help put this in a more acceptable perspective, go look up 10 psi residual pressure valves and see what the folks that sell them have to say as to why you should own them. Further, this is similar to swapping to rear discs and folks reporting an improvement. Only happens if there stock drums were neglected and not working properly.

If I had a choice, all of the lines we use would be custom length OEM style. We don't have those commonly available so we use SS but only for convenience.

 

[tquig01]

So I bugged a coworker where I work -extremely large aerospace company that you would recognize. He is also a bit of a gearhead that does autocross in his WRX STi and rides a sport bike. He is also a mechanical engineer that designs large rotating radar systems. I explained MrBlaine's findings and asked if he could add anything to the discussion. This is what he said, once I got him to "dumb-it-down" a bit to my level.

1- He was not surprised at all with MrBlaine's test results. He said even large hydraulic lines under tremendously more pressure do not show significant outside diameter swelling. If they do, they are about to blow.

2- The measurement that is important is the inner diameter because it determines fluid volume. There is a measureable change in volume in hydraulic systems when they are pressurized, but once pressurized, the volume remains constant. This is due to the inner core compressing, regardless of hose type. SS compress less because they use teflon vs rubber. More volume inside the system means the efficiency of the system decreases. He then went into a big long explanation about how the fluid is calculated as an uncompressible solid and how the volume of fluid moving impacts the clamping force of the calipers, interesting stuff.

3- Braking systems are just hydraulic systems that become pressurized with each press of the pedal vs being constantly pressurized so there is volume change regardless of the inner material, i.e. teflon vs rubber. Rubber does compress more easily but not significantly enough for it to affect most driving conditions. However, rubber is significantly more affected by heat so for performance applications, such as racing, the SS lines provide a more consistent brake feel over all temperature ranges.

4- Most important. Unless you are racing, any benefits you "feel" from going to SS lines would probably be obtained by simply replacing your existing lines with new rubber ones. The old ones were likely shot because, over time, the heat cycles make the internal rubber more compressible and therefore the volume increases with less buildup of heat, which give us the spongy feeling. I believe this is the point MrBlaine was making at the end.

So maybe my first step will be to replace the 18yr old rubber lines with new ones. Hope this helps someone.

 

[Mr. Bills]

. . . Here's something @mrblaine said:
mrblaine said:

In all the rigs I've worked on, I have never had a bad OEM hose. In the same time, I've seen many damaged SS braided hoses simply due to their inability to flex and handle vibration as good as rubber. Given a choice, I use extended rubber when I can find them and the lift height isn't too high. We do use a lot of SS braid lines but only for the sake of convenience in finding the lengths we need and exactly no other reason.

^^^^ This.

I have never liked stainless steel brake hoses in my jeeps for exactly these reasons. In fact, on my jeep "to do" list is finding OEM rubber brake hoses to replace stainless steel hoses installed by the previous owner. It doesn't matter to me whether or not rubber brake hoses swell or braided stainless steel brake hoses don't because it doesn't impact real world performance in a jeep to any meaningful degree.

I can measure the length, but I need to find out what vehicle to call out to get that length in an OEM rubber hose at a parts store, i.e., '06 Ram 1/2 ton pickup, '97 Chrysler minivan, etc.

Has anyone ever posted part numbers, source vehicles, etc. for OEM type rubber brake hoses for various lengths that will fit lifted TJ's and LJ's? [I imagine @mrblaine knows if anyone does, but I respect that such knowledge is proprietary and will not ask him unless I'm ready to order brake parts during the same conversation.]

 

[mrblaine]

^^^^ This.

I have never liked stainless steel brake hoses in my jeeps for exactly these reasons. In fact, on my jeep "to do" list is finding OEM rubber brake hoses to replace stainless steel hoses installed by the previous owner. It doesn't matter to me whether or not rubber brake hoses swell or braided stainless steel brake hoses don't because it doesn't impact real world performance in a jeep to any meaningful degree.

I can measure the length, but I need to find out what vehicle to call out to get that length in an OEM rubber hose at a parts store, i.e., '06 Ram 1/2 ton pickup, '97 Chrysler minivan, etc.

Has anyone ever posted part numbers, source vehicles, etc. for OEM type rubber brake hoses for various lengths that will fit lifted TJ's and LJ's? [I imagine @mrblaine knows if anyone does, but I respect that such knowledge is proprietary and will not ask him unless I'm ready to order brake parts during the same conversation.]

I have very little proprietary knowledge other than some well cared for sources of a few parts. I learned a very long time ago that regardless of how smart you think you are trying to protect something, all it takes is for one person to buy it, dissect it with intent, and the post up the results to be a "hero" to certain groups of folks.

With all that said, I would take a look at these. I've used them. They work, and I would use more of them if they were about 2" longer.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IY2CBTY/?tag=wranglerorg-20

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IY2CHHK/?tag=wranglerorg-20

I use a fair number of Dorman Products but I have a problem with this particular application due to a philosophical disagreement with stupidity.

Dorman makes the same sort of flex hose, extended length, for raised suspension heights, for the rear calipers, between the caliper and the hard line on the axle. I'm not quite sure where the disconnect is there since that relationship never changes no matter how high you lift the rig.

 

[weldedcambolt]

So I bugged a coworker where I work -extremely large aerospace company that you would recognize. He is also a bit of a gearhead that does autocross in his WRX STi and rides a sport bike. He is also a mechanical engineer that designs large rotating radar systems. I explained MrBlaine's findings and asked if he could add anything to the discussion. This is what he said, once I got him to "dumb-it-down" a bit to my level.

1- He was not surprised at all with MrBlaine's test results. He said even large hydraulic lines under tremendously more pressure do not show significant outside diameter swelling. If they do, they are about to blow.

2- The measurement that is important is the inner diameter because it determines fluid volume. There is a measureable change in volume in hydraulic systems when they are pressurized, but once pressurized, the volume remains constant. This is due to the inner core compressing, regardless of hose type. SS compress less because they use teflon vs rubber. More volume inside the system means the efficiency of the system decreases. He then went into a big long explanation about how the fluid is calculated as an uncompressible solid and how the volume of fluid moving impacts the clamping force of the calipers, interesting stuff.

3- Braking systems are just hydraulic systems that become pressurized with each press of the pedal vs being constantly pressurized so there is volume change regardless of the inner material, i.e. teflon vs rubber. Rubber does compress more easily but not significantly enough for it to affect most driving conditions. However, rubber is significantly more affected by heat so for performance applications, such as racing, the SS lines provide a more consistent brake feel over all temperature ranges.

4- Most important. Unless you are racing, any benefits you "feel" from going to SS lines would probably be obtained by simply replacing your existing lines with new rubber ones. The old ones were likely shot because, over time, the heat cycles make the internal rubber more compressible and therefore the volume increases with less buildup of heat, which give us the spongy feeling. I believe this is the point MrBlaine was making at the end.

So maybe my first step will be to replace the 18yr old rubber lines with new ones. Hope this helps someone.

ask him, at what temperature do i have to get to, an how quick, when, i hook up a torch to a pressurized master cylinder i am going to make, an hook that up to a button, that once the button is pressed that is mounted on the steering wheel, it ignites the torch heatin up the fluid in the cylinder, expanding it, which in turn will apply the caliper to brake, for your normal brake line system? eliminating the all brake pedals, cause i believe the foot should only be used for the gas pedal. wrommmm wroommmm........this way it will prevent millions from accidentlaly hitting the gas instead of the brake an going thru the walls of buildings in parking lots, an killing people. the button has to be away from the stereo up an down volume though. also, ask the aerospace company if they want to bring me on, an we will split the proceeds of this contraption braking system of mine. also, it will only be available to new drivers who have never driven before, because to many will be hitting the no brake pedal, who have been driving for years.

 

[Mr. Bills]

Did someone stumble across a bag of magic mushrooms?

 

[weldedcambolt]

Did someone stumble across a bag of magic mushrooms?

one day, we will be able to pay to get into someones brains, for an afternoon to see whats going on.....an my writing is just advertisment for that day an time, for when the people will be able to pay me to come in my brain for a afternoon visit...so i can buy more parts.....

 

[Jerry Bransford]

ask him, at what temperature do i have to get to, an how quick, when, i hook up a torch to a pressurized master cylinder i am going to make, an hook that up to a button, that once the button is pressed that is mounted on the steering wheel, it ignites the torch heatin up the fluid in the cylinder, expanding it, which in turn will apply the caliper to brake, for your normal brake line system? eliminating the all brake pedals, cause i believe the foot should only be used for the gas pedal. wrommmm wroommmm........this way it will prevent millions from accidentlaly hitting the gas instead of the brake an going thru the walls of buildings in parking lots, an killing people. the button has to be away from the stereo up an down volume though. also, ask the aerospace company if they want to bring me on, an we will split the proceeds of this contraption braking system of mine. also, it will only be available to new drivers who have never driven before, because to many will be hitting the no brake pedal, who have been driving for years.

Posts like these don't help anyone.

 

[mrblaine]

So I bugged a coworker where I work -extremely large aerospace company that you would recognize. He is also a bit of a gearhead that does autocross in his WRX STi and rides a sport bike. He is also a mechanical engineer that designs large rotating radar systems. I explained MrBlaine's findings and asked if he could add anything to the discussion. This is what he said, once I got him to "dumb-it-down" a bit to my level.

1- He was not surprised at all with MrBlaine's test results. He said even large hydraulic lines under tremendously more pressure do not show significant outside diameter swelling. If they do, they are about to blow.

2- The measurement that is important is the inner diameter because it determines fluid volume. There is a measureable change in volume in hydraulic systems when they are pressurized, but once pressurized, the volume remains constant. This is due to the inner core compressing, regardless of hose type. SS compress less because they use teflon vs rubber. More volume inside the system means the efficiency of the system decreases. He then went into a big long explanation about how the fluid is calculated as an uncompressible solid and how the volume of fluid moving impacts the clamping force of the calipers, interesting stuff.

3- Braking systems are just hydraulic systems that become pressurized with each press of the pedal vs being constantly pressurized so there is volume change regardless of the inner material, i.e. teflon vs rubber. Rubber does compress more easily but not significantly enough for it to affect most driving conditions. However, rubber is significantly more affected by heat so for performance applications, such as racing, the SS lines provide a more consistent brake feel over all temperature ranges.

4- Most important. Unless you are racing, any benefits you "feel" from going to SS lines would probably be obtained by simply replacing your existing lines with new rubber ones. The old ones were likely shot because, over time, the heat cycles make the internal rubber more compressible and therefore the volume increases with less buildup of heat, which give us the spongy feeling. I believe this is the point MrBlaine was making at the end.

So maybe my first step will be to replace the 18yr old rubber lines with new ones. Hope this helps someone.

I probably should have mentioned that my helper and I deal with more TJ brakes on various rigs than most anyone else. We install and break in at least one big brake kit a week. As such, we get to play with lots of different brake lines. We also install lots of extended lines both rubber and SS when we build rigs. Discussing this with him today we both agreed that we have never been able to tell any difference in lines and of note it should be pointed out that the break in process will likely get the system temps higher than the average owner will ever see.

 

[weldedcambolt]

it will if it propels the national movement, of removal of the brake pedal, causing people to accidentally kill people, by accidently hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake. For his fellow coworkers efforts, of all that he contributed, I thought I'd give him something to laugh about. It wasnt meant to be sarcastic, but the removal of the brake pedal or visa versa, to prevent the accidents maybe in the future cards of automobile automation.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

We also install lots of extended lines both rubber and SS when we build rigs. Discussing this with him today we both agreed that we have never been able to tell any difference in lines and of note it should be pointed out that the break in process will likely get the system temps higher than the average owner will ever see.

Good because I just bought some extended length Raybestos replacement YJ rubber brake hoses for the front. I recently noticed my driver's side brake line is a little tighter at full droop than I remembered it.

 

[Bird]

it will if it propels the national movement, of removal of the brake pedal, causing people to accidentally kill people, by accidently hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake. For his fellow coworkers efforts, of all that he contributed, I thought I'd give him something to laugh about. It wasnt meant to be sarcastic, but the removal of the brake pedal or visa versa, to prevent the accidents maybe in the future cards of automobile automation.

I recently rented a car without a column shifter and without a keyed ignition.....i much prefer yesteryear technology

 

[weldedcambolt]

I recently rented a car without a column shifter and without a keyed ignition.....i much prefer yesteryear technology

ya, drove my buddys hemi this weekend as a dd for them guys an that nob to get into drive an reverse, i see nothing but future problems with it. an drove a new lincoln to the keys acouple years ago, an couldnt catch a grip on the no key, an felt as if it wasnt important as much with an normal key, an easier to misplace

 

[weldedcambolt]

Posts like these don't help anyone.

Stick with me on this one Jerry, I get em laughing, they get me a job in the aerospace, I give em some good ideas, make em some profits, an then I get em, to give me an you a seat on the next mission to the moon, as stainless steel brake jeep rover line experts?, an we do this all day long did they mount a cross on the back of that thing?