I got asked some questions about some brake related stuff without knowing the context, I answered and then got argued with, so I went and looked.
To clear up the retarded bullshit used to justify erroneous choices.
1- You do NOT build bigger rear brakes for trail use, you build front brakes for street use. We don't have differentials in the t-case which means that even if you remove the rear brakes completely, put it in 4wd and lock it up, the front brakes will lock up the rear tires if you have enough front brake. Make it safe for the street by not having the rears lock up on you when you moderately use the brakes, let the front brakes do the work front brakes are supposed to do.
2- Yes, some vehicles use vented rotors on the rear. None of those are short wheelbase. Vented rotors are used when the rear brakes can be worked hard. Examples are police cars of the full size sedan type with ABS. Modern pick-ups with higher weight and tow capacities and that's right, at least rear ABS. The reason that most cars do not have vented rotors is due to bias and the front brakes doing most of the work. Most vehicles run a rear brake set up that is roughly 1/2 the work capacity of the fronts. If that were not the case, all they would do is lock up the rear brakes every time the pedal is pressed. Using the example that vented rotors are okay because some other vehicle has them just shows how little you understand about brakes and bias.
3- The stock vehicle's proportioning valve's function cannot be easily duplicated with an aftermarket adjustable "prop" valve. Prop in quotes because they are not proportional, they are percentage. The OEM valve has a knee point on the pressure graph which reduces the pressure at a higher percentage to slow down rear lock up. That is why they are called "proportional". Aftermarket valves don't do that, they simply reduce the input pressure by a percentage that maxes out at about 60%. I have had to plumb in back-to-back aftermarket valves trying to prevent rear lock up after front calipers were incorrectly installed on the rear axle simply because the parts were available to be used. Just because someone makes a kit does not make that kit a good idea. There are lots of companies that should not be selling brake related parts except under the category "HERE'S SOME PARTS, WE DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT BRAKES, BUT YOU CAN USE THEM IF YOU DO". The other side of that is no one who knows a fucking thing about brakes would use them.
4- Rotors DO NOT register on the lug studs. Some are clamped to the rotor from behind by pressing the lug studs through them, some are integrated into the bearing hub but at no point in time are they lug centric. Any company that tells you that is a good idea has their head up their ass. Use whatever wheel example you like that is lug centric to justify your bullshit, you're still wrong. The other way you know you are wrong is all lug centric wheels have some mechanism to center the larger hole in the wheel on the stud. Most common are countersunk lug nut seats. Others use a round bulge, some use conical bulge, some use a larger straight shank lug nut like the old Cragar wheels wheels but NONE of them are like a rotor that does not register on a pilot and only on the lug studs. If a wheel is held on with flat face lug nuts like a dually, you can goddam bet the farm the wheel registers on an axle or adapter pilot. That also means if you have a rotor that is held on with the flat back face of the wheel mounting surface, it has to register on a pilot as well.
5- Bias is built into the system by designing the brake parts for their job they have to do. That is done via a combination of methods usually starting with the sizing of the components. Rear brakes don't do much, you can't make them do much since the vast majority of the work is done by the front brakes. Since they don't do much and you can't make them do more than the vehicle's size, weight and wheelbase will let them do, putting front brakes on the rear is just dumb.
6- If you install rear brakes of any type and you don't think they are doing much, that's good otherwise you'd be locking them up all the time.
7- And almost finally, stop plucking stupid fucking examples out of your ass to justify stupidity and lack of understanding. It just makes you look stupid. Just because A random vehicle happens to run a vented rear rotor does not mean it is a sound idea for THE vehicle you are working on.
Finally, folks bitch about not getting help. 2 things fuck that up completely. If they wanted help, they would listen, learn, and adapt accordingly. That and help isn't really wanted, what is wanted is to be told they are doing it right regardless of how wrong it is.
Now I get to go have a chat with the monkeys that drug me into this shit.
To clear up the retarded bullshit used to justify erroneous choices.
1- You do NOT build bigger rear brakes for trail use, you build front brakes for street use. We don't have differentials in the t-case which means that even if you remove the rear brakes completely, put it in 4wd and lock it up, the front brakes will lock up the rear tires if you have enough front brake. Make it safe for the street by not having the rears lock up on you when you moderately use the brakes, let the front brakes do the work front brakes are supposed to do.
2- Yes, some vehicles use vented rotors on the rear. None of those are short wheelbase. Vented rotors are used when the rear brakes can be worked hard. Examples are police cars of the full size sedan type with ABS. Modern pick-ups with higher weight and tow capacities and that's right, at least rear ABS. The reason that most cars do not have vented rotors is due to bias and the front brakes doing most of the work. Most vehicles run a rear brake set up that is roughly 1/2 the work capacity of the fronts. If that were not the case, all they would do is lock up the rear brakes every time the pedal is pressed. Using the example that vented rotors are okay because some other vehicle has them just shows how little you understand about brakes and bias.
3- The stock vehicle's proportioning valve's function cannot be easily duplicated with an aftermarket adjustable "prop" valve. Prop in quotes because they are not proportional, they are percentage. The OEM valve has a knee point on the pressure graph which reduces the pressure at a higher percentage to slow down rear lock up. That is why they are called "proportional". Aftermarket valves don't do that, they simply reduce the input pressure by a percentage that maxes out at about 60%. I have had to plumb in back-to-back aftermarket valves trying to prevent rear lock up after front calipers were incorrectly installed on the rear axle simply because the parts were available to be used. Just because someone makes a kit does not make that kit a good idea. There are lots of companies that should not be selling brake related parts except under the category "HERE'S SOME PARTS, WE DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT BRAKES, BUT YOU CAN USE THEM IF YOU DO". The other side of that is no one who knows a fucking thing about brakes would use them.
4- Rotors DO NOT register on the lug studs. Some are clamped to the rotor from behind by pressing the lug studs through them, some are integrated into the bearing hub but at no point in time are they lug centric. Any company that tells you that is a good idea has their head up their ass. Use whatever wheel example you like that is lug centric to justify your bullshit, you're still wrong. The other way you know you are wrong is all lug centric wheels have some mechanism to center the larger hole in the wheel on the stud. Most common are countersunk lug nut seats. Others use a round bulge, some use conical bulge, some use a larger straight shank lug nut like the old Cragar wheels wheels but NONE of them are like a rotor that does not register on a pilot and only on the lug studs. If a wheel is held on with flat face lug nuts like a dually, you can goddam bet the farm the wheel registers on an axle or adapter pilot. That also means if you have a rotor that is held on with the flat back face of the wheel mounting surface, it has to register on a pilot as well.
5- Bias is built into the system by designing the brake parts for their job they have to do. That is done via a combination of methods usually starting with the sizing of the components. Rear brakes don't do much, you can't make them do much since the vast majority of the work is done by the front brakes. Since they don't do much and you can't make them do more than the vehicle's size, weight and wheelbase will let them do, putting front brakes on the rear is just dumb.
6- If you install rear brakes of any type and you don't think they are doing much, that's good otherwise you'd be locking them up all the time.
7- And almost finally, stop plucking stupid fucking examples out of your ass to justify stupidity and lack of understanding. It just makes you look stupid. Just because A random vehicle happens to run a vented rear rotor does not mean it is a sound idea for THE vehicle you are working on.
Finally, folks bitch about not getting help. 2 things fuck that up completely. If they wanted help, they would listen, learn, and adapt accordingly. That and help isn't really wanted, what is wanted is to be told they are doing it right regardless of how wrong it is.
Now I get to go have a chat with the monkeys that drug me into this shit.
