Yeah, in the last few months I have read reports of issues. But I've also seen people say as recently as August everything was fine and they received great service. So it might be due to them apparently going out of business now that Rob5589 and the other guy had issues. I guess its kind of irrelevant now if they have gone out of business. But I would still like to see the product line continue. Until then I guess I need to look more closely at the JKS stuff. It seems to be the next best option in a progressive or dual rate spring.
JKS JSPEC suspension kit
- Thread starter bobthetj03
- Start date
Yeah, in the last few months I have read reports of issues. But I've also seen people say as recently as August everything was fine and they received great service. So it might be due to them apparently going out of business now that Rob5589 and the other guy had issues. I guess its kind of irrelevant now if they have gone out of business. But I would still like to see the product line continue. Until then I guess I need to look more closely at the JKS stuff. It seems to be the next best option in a progressive or dual rate spring.
Yep, they went the way of OR-Fab. A great company gone out of business or turned to shambles. It's unfortunate, but hopefully they can be taken over by someone who actually knows how to run a business. I know they have a reputation for making some great products, so it's unfortunate it's come to this.
What about Savvy? They make a dual rate spring (or is it progressive). It’s the 3”
Edit: never mind, I found your post mentioning they were softer. I’ve read the same thing
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Nth and NW2J = bad business
I did receive my order in the end but would not trust them again.
Based on the good I have read on JKS (I use their tb which is very beefy), buy their coils and report back. It is hard to imagine they would be trash based on the quality of other pieces.
I did receive my order in the end but would not trust them again.
Based on the good I have read on JKS (I use their tb which is very beefy), buy their coils and report back. It is hard to imagine they would be trash based on the quality of other pieces.
There have been pretty good reports of the BDS coils, in this forum, and in others. The same parent company owns BDS and JKS, so I would expect that the JKS would be quality as well.
Hey Guys,
Not a paid vendor here, so I will keep this from being a sales pitch and give information on our kit (going to be a long post lol). Our 2" and 3" TJ kits are very complete, and look to replace as many wear items on the Jeep, while offering a performance upgrade at the same time. That creates a pretty expensive kit to say the least. Also, with the JKS system, every detail has been thought of, no guesswork on the part of the installer or customer. The correct brake line drops are included, the shocks are set up to achieve max travel, bump stops set up to work correctly with the shock. Nothing left on the table, and nothing left to buy to make the kit complete. Looking through this thread, it appears to me that everyone posting here knows that quality has a cost, as you are comparing some very nice products, and we are happy to be in the conversation!
Springs: Just a bit about a dual rate spring (does not matter if it is ours or anyone's). While the trend is to market them as better ride quality (and they are) the biggest benefit to me is going to be the free length. A dual rate spring for any given lift height is going to have a longer free length than as standard spring for the same lift height. That allows us to run a longer shock combination to gain more travel without unseating the spring. Basically, more flex with the same lift height. Also with a dual rate spring, you cannot take the spring rates for face value. A 240lb rated spring in a TJ would ride like a lumber wagon. The two rates are working against each other when installed, and creates a much lower overall spring rate.
Speaking of shocks: Yes, JKS is owned by Fox, but the Fox shock that you get in a JKS kit are not the same as the Fox shock that you purchase elsewhere. You can see the part numbers are different, they are the JKS part numbers. We have them built in custom lengths (to match the dual rate springs) and also have them valved specific to how we want them to ride with our springs. That being said, a performance shock is going to have a firmer feel on the road, do read that as harsh, but also not driving a marshmallow either. The shock is designed for off road performance. 15-25mph down the trail between obstacles, breezing through the dunes and the trails, these are the areas the shock is going to take over and provide the performance gains in a big way, even over our JSPEC shocks. Speaking of the JSPEC shocks, they are an OE shock and as mentioned, not manufactured by us, but by a tier 1 OE supplier. They are a softer shock, designed for road driving, but with the lengths set up to achieve all of the articulation that the kit will offer.
Lastly, it was said that we are in the JK and JL markets. That might be true from a volume standpoint, as we simply sell more of those product lines. We sell a few hundred of these TJ kits per year, so not a small sampling either. I personally own a 97 TJ, our phone tech runs a 98 TJ, our sales department combined owns 5 more TJ's, and the engineers have another 3 TJ's as well. You know how many JK's the employees own? 3 total! We are TJ people for sure
Any questions, or if you want to talk about a kit for your specific Jeep, don't ever hesitate to contact us.
Justin
[email protected]
Not a paid vendor here, so I will keep this from being a sales pitch and give information on our kit (going to be a long post lol). Our 2" and 3" TJ kits are very complete, and look to replace as many wear items on the Jeep, while offering a performance upgrade at the same time. That creates a pretty expensive kit to say the least. Also, with the JKS system, every detail has been thought of, no guesswork on the part of the installer or customer. The correct brake line drops are included, the shocks are set up to achieve max travel, bump stops set up to work correctly with the shock. Nothing left on the table, and nothing left to buy to make the kit complete. Looking through this thread, it appears to me that everyone posting here knows that quality has a cost, as you are comparing some very nice products, and we are happy to be in the conversation!
Springs: Just a bit about a dual rate spring (does not matter if it is ours or anyone's). While the trend is to market them as better ride quality (and they are) the biggest benefit to me is going to be the free length. A dual rate spring for any given lift height is going to have a longer free length than as standard spring for the same lift height. That allows us to run a longer shock combination to gain more travel without unseating the spring. Basically, more flex with the same lift height. Also with a dual rate spring, you cannot take the spring rates for face value. A 240lb rated spring in a TJ would ride like a lumber wagon. The two rates are working against each other when installed, and creates a much lower overall spring rate.
Speaking of shocks: Yes, JKS is owned by Fox, but the Fox shock that you get in a JKS kit are not the same as the Fox shock that you purchase elsewhere. You can see the part numbers are different, they are the JKS part numbers. We have them built in custom lengths (to match the dual rate springs) and also have them valved specific to how we want them to ride with our springs. That being said, a performance shock is going to have a firmer feel on the road, do read that as harsh, but also not driving a marshmallow either. The shock is designed for off road performance. 15-25mph down the trail between obstacles, breezing through the dunes and the trails, these are the areas the shock is going to take over and provide the performance gains in a big way, even over our JSPEC shocks. Speaking of the JSPEC shocks, they are an OE shock and as mentioned, not manufactured by us, but by a tier 1 OE supplier. They are a softer shock, designed for road driving, but with the lengths set up to achieve all of the articulation that the kit will offer.
Lastly, it was said that we are in the JK and JL markets. That might be true from a volume standpoint, as we simply sell more of those product lines. We sell a few hundred of these TJ kits per year, so not a small sampling either. I personally own a 97 TJ, our phone tech runs a 98 TJ, our sales department combined owns 5 more TJ's, and the engineers have another 3 TJ's as well. You know how many JK's the employees own? 3 total! We are TJ people for sure
Any questions, or if you want to talk about a kit for your specific Jeep, don't ever hesitate to contact us.
Justin
[email protected]
Hey Guys,
Not a paid vendor here, so I will keep this from being a sales pitch and give information on our kit (going to be a long post lol). Our 2" and 3" TJ kits are very complete, and look to replace as many wear items on the Jeep, while offering a performance upgrade at the same time. That creates a pretty expensive kit to say the least. Also, with the JKS system, every detail has been thought of, no guesswork on the part of the installer or customer. The correct brake line drops are included, the shocks are set up to achieve max travel, bump stops set up to work correctly with the shock. Nothing left on the table, and nothing left to buy to make the kit complete. Looking through this thread, it appears to me that everyone posting here knows that quality has a cost, as you are comparing some very nice products, and we are happy to be in the conversation!
Springs: Just a bit about a dual rate spring (does not matter if it is ours or anyone's). While the trend is to market them as better ride quality (and they are) the biggest benefit to me is going to be the free length. A dual rate spring for any given lift height is going to have a longer free length than as standard spring for the same lift height. That allows us to run a longer shock combination to gain more travel without unseating the spring. Basically, more flex with the same lift height. Also with a dual rate spring, you cannot take the spring rates for face value. A 240lb rated spring in a TJ would ride like a lumber wagon. The two rates are working against each other when installed, and creates a much lower overall spring rate.
Speaking of shocks: Yes, JKS is owned by Fox, but the Fox shock that you get in a JKS kit are not the same as the Fox shock that you purchase elsewhere. You can see the part numbers are different, they are the JKS part numbers. We have them built in custom lengths (to match the dual rate springs) and also have them valved specific to how we want them to ride with our springs. That being said, a performance shock is going to have a firmer feel on the road, do read that as harsh, but also not driving a marshmallow either. The shock is designed for off road performance. 15-25mph down the trail between obstacles, breezing through the dunes and the trails, these are the areas the shock is going to take over and provide the performance gains in a big way, even over our JSPEC shocks. Speaking of the JSPEC shocks, they are an OE shock and as mentioned, not manufactured by us, but by a tier 1 OE supplier. They are a softer shock, designed for road driving, but with the lengths set up to achieve all of the articulation that the kit will offer.
Lastly, it was said that we are in the JK and JL markets. That might be true from a volume standpoint, as we simply sell more of those product lines. We sell a few hundred of these TJ kits per year, so not a small sampling either. I personally own a 97 TJ, our phone tech runs a 98 TJ, our sales department combined owns 5 more TJ's, and the engineers have another 3 TJ's as well. You know how many JK's the employees own? 3 total! We are TJ people for sure
Any questions, or if you want to talk about a kit for your specific Jeep, don't ever hesitate to contact us.
Justin
[email protected]
Good to know Justin, I ended up going with a OME set up earlier this year due to lots of folks positive feedback and limited amounts of info on the J-Spec kits. I do run your track bars and end links and they are quality parts. Thanks for sharing more about the kits. Good to know it was designed to work together.
Thank you Justin for your response. I have spoken with you before and I just want to say that I have always found JKS to be super responsive and helpful. It is one of the biggest reasons I am seriously considering JKS when other brands such as Savvy and OME get much more attention on the forums.
In regards to springs, I'm not sure I fully agree with your statement above. It seems to me that a dual rate spring can be designed to meet one of 2 different purposes. I think each purpose would dictate a different design. It can either be designed to have a 2nd rate that is softer than the 'ride rate' or it can be designed to have a 2nd rate that is firmer than the 'ride rate'. The purpose of having a rate softer than the normal ride weight would be to simply fill in the space to keep the spring from unseating at full droop. The purpose of having a rate that is more firm than the ride weight would be to support the additional load when the Jeep is fully loaded. Looking at your spring rates and marketing information, it seems to me that the JKS springs are designed more towards the goal of supporting additional load. Is that correct?
To get to my point, if a dual rate or progressive spring is designed to carry more load, I do not think in neccesarily has to be longer than a linear rate spring. The Nth Degree rear 3" progressive spring (14") is actually a shorter spring than the BDS 3" spring (14.75). So I can only assume that the Nth degree spring must be substantially firmer in both rates to allow for a shorter spring. In fact, personal testing by a member of jeepforum found the initial rate of the Nth Degree rear spring to be about 210lbs. Which is in fact higher than BDS springs at 200lbs. However, let me back up to say that a shorter spring is not necessarily desirable unless you are having issues with up travel and need a short spring to keep from over compressing your springs.
If I can make one request of JKS, I would request that you look into a rear spring for the LJ that is about 10% more firm than the TJ offerering. I spoke with a person you put me in touch with a year ago and the only complaint he had with the JKS system was that the rear spring could not handle the weight of his loaded LJ. This also fits my personal experience with my 200lb BDS springs. They are too soft and my jeep does not have the proper spring frequency from the front to the rear. When I am loaded down the problem is even worse as I tend to fully compress the spring into the bumpstop. So for my needs with my LJ, I anticipate that I need a spring that starts with a rate closer to 210lbs and gets heavier after that. Which is about 10% firmer than your published numbers and would be close to what the Nth Degree LJ specific springs are estimated to be. OME also has LJ specific springs that are at 216lbs, further making the case that an LJ needs a heavier rear spring to carry the extra load.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
OP
We need some butt dyno tests here. I have half a mind to get these magical 3" springs and see what my dyno results conclude. Keeping all things the same, except springs of course, and going from linear rate OME's to these dual rate springs, maybe we can get some observations. The thing that is bugging me about dual rate springs is the compressed section of spring. It's basically just a coil spacer being mostly compressed at ride height. Yeah, it allows for more droop, without unseating the spring, but how much droop do you think you can gain before other limiters like shock length, limiting straps, or control arm/track bar/tie rod binding occurs. If you put a longer shock on to extend droop, then you sacrifice up travel, unless you re-engineer the mounts. For a daily driver that runs light most of the time, I need a spring that will provide a softer ride over small events, and a more rate when I add 150lbs. to the back with dog/gear/trailer/etc.
Case in point. I'm not limited by my coil spring here, my tire is off the ground and my spring is fully seated. Shocks or some other binding is the limiter here.
That is what I was trying to describe above. That compressed section depends what the spring was designed to do. If you look at the AEV and Nth degrees springs, they do not act that way. The top coils are still open at normal ride height. You ride in the soft coil. Its not until you load the rig down that you get into the firm coil. MetalCloak and others take this this other direction as you described above. They have the soft section of the coil in full coil bind at ride height, so the only function the dual rate performs is to give you more droop. They are very different approaches. Most people are not seeing this difference and they think all dual rate and progressive rate springs act the same way and function the same. They do not. I think the JKS springs are designed to behave more similar to the AEV/Nth Degree springs. But I have never been able to find a picture of a JKS spring sitting at ride height so see how the coil is compressed.
Let me demonstate what I am saying. Look at this Nth degree setup. See how the rear coils are NOT in bind at ride height? You can see the top of the coil is compressed more than the bottom . But no where near being just a spacer. Not until the Jeep gets a much heavier load on it will it go into coil bind. At that point you will still have the stiffer coil underneath to ride on. It is a true progressive spring made to carry a load.
TJ with Nth
JK with AEV
That is a very different spring than the Metalcloak way of doing things.
Don't think the MetalCloak way is the only way to build a Dual rate spring.
Yep, that is what I need too. That is why I like the Nth Degree and AEV way of doing it. I just don't know where JKS falls into the spectrum.
Here is another picture of how the AEV front springs sit under load. You will notice that it has one coil in bind. Probably due to a winch or something. But it still has at least 2 coils of the softer rate before it gets into the firm rate. Notice the spacing between the top 2 open coils is about 1/2" and the spacing between the lower coils is about 1". It still has a progression of spring to work through. It can still carry more load before the soft coil is in full bind. This is an entirely different way to design a spring than MetalCloak. MetalCloak designs their springs to give full droop without having the spring come out of the perch. AEV/Nth Degree designed their spring to maintain a consistent ride quality as the vehicle gets loaded down with additional gear. Additional length for droop is just a by product, it is not the intent of the design for AEV/Nth Degree.
OP
Rock Krawler advertises a "triple rate spring", which I can't determine if they are similar to the AEV/Nth philosophy, or Metal Cloaks? Just saw a pic of a member who just installed them.
Looks like the 1st 3 coils are already at bind. Now that could be because he has a heavy front, but don't know.
http://www.rockkrawler.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RK00215
Looks like the 1st 3 coils are already at bind. Now that could be because he has a heavy front, but don't know.
http://www.rockkrawler.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RK00215
Following this as I am trying to figure out my springs. I only want a couple inches of lift but I have a winch on front and and Expedition rack/tire carrier and Hardtop that may come on and off .
Thanks for posting the RockKrawler picture. I was aware of this coil and I even called Rock Krawler a few days ago. I got some ride rates of 145 front and 180 rear from them. So a little softer than JKS. But my conversation with the sales rep really left me confused. He said they rode in the middle rate. He said the soft rate was only to keep the spring in its perch and the hard rate was really hard and you would never want to ride in it. But then he implied it was really short and you would be on your bumpstops before you hit the hard rate. Which really left me wondering what the purpose of it was. So I left our conversation confused and questioning the rates and what the intent of the spring was.
That picture is hard to tell what is going on. If it has a heavy winch and bumper it could be designed more like Nth. If he is stock upfront it looks more like the MetalCloak design. It almost looks like there is some coil bind on the bottom coil too. But that might just be where the coil naturally comes together.
I agree its hard to tell just where this spring falls into play. It could be that the soft rate is already in full bind. It looks like it has a couple coils available in the middle rate and more open heavy coils in the bottom. It looks to me like it would be possible to get into those firm coils through the course of the suspension travel.
The more I look at it the more it looks like the AEV JK front spring in the picture directly above it. Both have 3 compressed coils on top, a couple with 1/2" spaces and the rest is an open firm rate. Now I need to research the JK coil more. I'm starting to have a recollection that somewhere I saw they called it a tripple rate too.
Is this RockKralwer coil the 2" or 3.5"?
That picture is hard to tell what is going on. If it has a heavy winch and bumper it could be designed more like Nth. If he is stock upfront it looks more like the MetalCloak design. It almost looks like there is some coil bind on the bottom coil too. But that might just be where the coil naturally comes together.
I agree its hard to tell just where this spring falls into play. It could be that the soft rate is already in full bind. It looks like it has a couple coils available in the middle rate and more open heavy coils in the bottom. It looks to me like it would be possible to get into those firm coils through the course of the suspension travel.
The more I look at it the more it looks like the AEV JK front spring in the picture directly above it. Both have 3 compressed coils on top, a couple with 1/2" spaces and the rest is an open firm rate. Now I need to research the JK coil more. I'm starting to have a recollection that somewhere I saw they called it a tripple rate too.
Is this RockKralwer coil the 2" or 3.5"?
It's definitely not as severe as MC's. MC's have five or six coils bound up at ride height with an aftermarket bumper and winch. Say, @Fargo, I've been looking at 3" springs. I was initially interested in AEV after reading a lot, till I discovered they were no longer making springs for our TJ's. Are you saying that IF Nth Degree is still in business, that their spring is comparable to AEV? The Nth Degree spring is one I have on the list to examine, but I have not been able to get anyone to answer the phone. I was making calls 3-4 weeks ago.
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That member has the RockKrawler 3.5". He has a stock front bumper with a winch and some steel flattie fenders that he fabbed up. Nice rig. Here's a link for more pics of the suspension.
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/my-05-rubi-build-and-picture-thread.1022/page-19#post-235017
More than that. I'm saying the Nth Degree spring IS the exact same as the AEV springs.
The original Nth Degree Mobility was founded by Jim Frens. Prior to founding Nth Degree Mobility, Jim was a Senior Engineer for Chrysler. Guess which division he worked in... Yeah, he worked with Jeep. He did the engineering on the factory TJ suspension system while he was employed by Jeep. So he obviously knows our TJ suspension well. I think he was constrained at Jeep with what he could do with the TJ suspension, so when he founded Nth Degree he took the engineering the next level, the 'Nth degree' so to speak. He introduced things like progressive rate springs, outboarding the shock mounts, and the rear torque arm Stinger suspension. That was back in 2002. I think the rest of the Jeeping community is just now starting to realize the benefits of some of the things he introduced. (Thats not to say these things never existed in other applications before).
Anyway, it turned out that Jim was a better engineer than he was a business man and Nth Degree ran into financial difficulties. At that point Jim sold Nth Degree to AEV. So the AEV line of TJ products is actually all Nth Degree Mobility. They are one in the same. Not only that, but AEV then hired Jim Frens as the Senior Engineer at AEV. So the entire line of AEV JK suspension was also designed by Jim Frens. So you could say that the AEV JK suspenion is also Nth Degree. They had the same designer.
Jims profile on linkedin shows that he now owns a consulting firm called 'Terrestrial Dynamics Consulting'. I'm not sure what it is exactly he is doing. However, I have seen magazine articles in the past that say AEV worked with Jim while producing the suspension for the Dodge Ram. So it seems he is still doing some work with AEV. I would not be surprised if Jim is being consulted and working with AEV on on the JL suspension. But that is pure speculation.
This is why I am so dissappointed that Nth is no longer available. They were a great product. AEV was built on Nth Degree suspensions.
I really hope someone picks up the rights to the Nth product line. Then that same organization needs to be in contact with AEV to pick up the JK product line when AEV is done with that line. There is a huge business opportunity here. KNowWhere2Jeep saw that opportunity. He was just not able to bring it to its full potential.
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OP
This leads me to my next question, Say I decide to get a dual rate spring. My jeep is light (comparatively speaking), so how can I determine which spring to get? I want 3" of lift, but if these spring makers are rating the spring based on a loaded up jeep with heavy bumpers and such, and are tight lipped on spring rates, how can one run the calculation for sprung weight to determine if they are getting the right length spring? If I order 3" springs and I net 4" or more, I will not be pleased. So do I order 2" springs and hope for 3" of lift? Do I give said spring maker my sprung weights and let them make the calculations to get me the height I want based on the weight of my rig?