Piss & Moan Table

I have a little "inside baseball" knowledge from being in that industry for a while, albeit some time ago. When I was at Polaris (two decades ago now), the lack of snow for about 15 years had taken a toll on snowmobile sales. I don't remember the exact figures, but total industry sales in the USA were under 100,000 units annually. At that time, Ski Doo was #1, Polaris #2, Arctic Cat #3, and Yamaha #4. I believe they are still ranked that way except for Yamaha. They quit making sleds a while ago. All of those companies started as snowmobile companies (except Yamaha, of course.) Ski Doo and Polaris had successfully transitioned to ATV/UTV companies, but Arctic Cat struggled to follow suit. As a result, the continued lack of snow in the years since I left Polaris, coupled with their transition to ATV/UTV sales dominance has positioned Ski Doo and Polaris for longevity, but Arctic Cat, not so much.

Along comes Textron in 2017 to inject cash into Arctic Cat. I don't believe they were after military sales, though. They were experiencing soft sales in their aviation companies and had purchased Bad Boy (at the time making electric UTVs in the hunting market) a few years earlier to diversify, and they saw Arctic Cat as a bargain for an established off-road brand to build up their off-road portfolio. Unfortunately, that didn't work out the way they had hoped. At the end of 2024, they told their employees they would be shutting down operations in early 2025. That was sad news, as their two facilities - Thief River Falls, MN and St. Cloud, MN - were major employers in those communities.

Along comes Brad Darling. He had been VP of Snowmobiles for Arctic Cat, but got canned years earlier, and Argo (the six-wheeled amphibious vehicle manufacturer) had hired him. He convinced the investors that owned Argo to purchase Arctic Cat and have him run it. That was in early 2025. And that's where we are today, I think. Private equity owns Arctic Cat and Argo, and we all know how they operate. They ruthlessly pursue short term profit to recoup their investments. Hence, the hardball games with dealers...

During my time at Polaris, corporate communications about the snowmobile business were always incredibly depressing. The lack of snow had our customer base shrinking (and getting older) every year, and when coupled with rapidly rising prices for new units, it was very disheartening. That constant bad news was one of many reasons why I left there after only three years. I loved the work, and the team of engineers and techs with whom I worked was one of the best teams I ever had privilege of knowing.
 
I have a little "inside baseball" knowledge from being in that industry for a while, albeit some time ago. When I was at Polaris (two decades ago now), the lack of snow for about 15 years had taken a toll on snowmobile sales. I don't remember the exact figures, but total industry sales in the USA were under 100,000 units annually. At that time, Ski Doo was #1, Polaris #2, Arctic Cat #3, and Yamaha #4. I believe they are still ranked that way except for Yamaha. They quit making sleds a while ago. All of those companies started as snowmobile companies (except Yamaha, of course.) Ski Doo and Polaris had successfully transitioned to ATV/UTV companies, but Arctic Cat struggled to follow suit. As a result, the continued lack of snow in the years since I left Polaris, coupled with their transition to ATV/UTV sales dominance has positioned Ski Doo and Polaris for longevity, but Arctic Cat, not so much.

Along comes Textron in 2017 to inject cash into Arctic Cat. I don't believe they were after military sales, though. They were experiencing soft sales in their aviation companies and had purchased Bad Boy (at the time making electric UTVs in the hunting market) a few years earlier to diversify, and they saw Arctic Cat as a bargain for an established off-road brand to build up their off-road portfolio. Unfortunately, that didn't work out the way they had hoped. At the end of 2024, they told their employees they would be shutting down operations in early 2025. That was sad news, as their two facilities - Thief River Falls, MN and St. Cloud, MN - were major employers in those communities.

Along comes Brad Darling. He had been VP of Snowmobiles for Arctic Cat, but got canned years earlier, and Argo (the six-wheeled amphibious vehicle manufacturer) had hired him. He convinced the investors that owned Argo to purchase Arctic Cat and have him run it. That was in early 2025. And that's where we are today, I think. Private equity owns Arctic Cat and Argo, and we all know how they operate. They ruthlessly pursue short term profit to recoup their investments. Hence, the hardball games with dealers...

During my time at Polaris, corporate communications about the snowmobile business were always incredibly depressing. The lack of snow had our customer base shrinking (and getting older) every year, and when coupled with rapidly rising prices for new units, it was very disheartening. That constant bad news was one of many reasons why I left there after only three years. I loved the work, and the team of engineers and techs with whom I worked was one of the best teams I ever had privilege of knowing.

I wont pretend to know all the minutia of what happened with Textron and Arctic Cat, but they were indeed looking at using Arctic Cat's ATV and Side by Side platforms to challenge Polaris' foothold. Within the first year after they finalized the purchase they were actively designing functional military version of the Havoc. The 2018/2019 Havoc was actually a byproduct result of the engineering designs for the Havoc-M. The first time I saw a Havoc behind the local Arctic Cat dealer I thought the front control arms looked beefier than a LOT of half ton truck control arms. I would have much rather had the Havoc than my Wildcat trail.

These are OEM...
1782248764243.webp

Havoc-M
1782248952842.webp

Havoc
1782248915638.webp
 
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I wont pretend to know all the minutia of what happened with Textron and Arctic Cat, but they were indeed looking at using Arctic Cat's ATV and Side by Side platforms to challenge Polaris' foothold. Within the first year after they finalized the purchase they were actively designing functional military version of the Havoc. The Havoc was actually a byproduct result of the engineering designs for the Havoc-M. The first time I saw a Havoc behind the local Arctic Cat dealer I thought the front control arms looked beefier than a LOT of half ton truck control arms. I would have much rather had the Havoc than my Wildcat trail.

These are OEM...
View attachment 696061
Havoc-M
View attachment 696066
Havoc
View attachment 696065

I can only imagine how much we spend on a Havoc-M . The government discount never is . Cool SxS though !
 
I can only imagine how much we spend on a Havoc-M . The government discount never is . Cool SxS though !

Well luckily nothing. Textron didn't get the contract. The Civilian Havoc (late 2018-2019) is built on the exact same chassis, and even has the same body. It's just missing the lifting eyes on the frame and the upfitted bed. They never developed a multi-fuel engine for the military version either.
 
I wont pretend to know all the minutia of what happened with Textron and Arctic Cat, but they were indeed looking at using Arctic Cat's ATV and Side by Side platforms to challenge Polaris' foothold.
I don't know all the details, either, and I didn't mean to imply that Textron didn't go after the military business. I was just saying that they wanted Arctic Cat's established business - that's their modus operandi. They buy established businesses. I don't think Arctic Cat has ever had a military contract for small vehicles, but I could be wrong. Polaris had already been selling ATVs to the military for at least a decade when I started there in early 2004, and while I was there, they spun off Polaris Defense, their military division. We were told at the time that they did it for security reasons. The rest of us couldn't access any of the military division's drawings, specs, etc. They were "need to know." I'm sure Textron did see potential in military sales since their other companies have military contracts, but I don't think that was a driving factor in their purchase of Arctic Cat. They just wanted to build a portfolio of powersports companies, starting with Bad Boy and then Arctic Cat.
 
I don't know all the details, either, and I didn't mean to imply that Textron didn't go after the military business. I was just saying that they wanted Arctic Cat's established business - that's their modus operandi. They buy established businesses. I don't think Arctic Cat has ever had a military contract for small vehicles, but I could be wrong. Polaris had already been selling ATVs to the military for at least a decade when I started there in early 2004, and while I was there, they spun off Polaris Defense, their military division. We were told at the time that they did it for security reasons. The rest of us couldn't access any of the military division's drawings, specs, etc. They were "need to know." I'm sure Textron did see potential in military sales since their other companies have military contracts, but I don't think that was a driving factor in their purchase of Arctic Cat. They just wanted to build a portfolio of powersports companies, starting with Bad Boy and then Arctic Cat.

They wanted the ditch pickle.
 
I don't know all the details, either, and I didn't mean to imply that Textron didn't go after the military business. I was just saying that they wanted Arctic Cat's established business - that's their modus operandi. They buy established businesses. I don't think Arctic Cat has ever had a military contract for small vehicles, but I could be wrong. Polaris had already been selling ATVs to the military for at least a decade when I started there in early 2004, and while I was there, they spun off Polaris Defense, their military division. We were told at the time that they did it for security reasons. The rest of us couldn't access any of the military division's drawings, specs, etc. They were "need to know." I'm sure Textron did see potential in military sales since their other companies have military contracts, but I don't think that was a driving factor in their purchase of Arctic Cat. They just wanted to build a portfolio of powersports companies, starting with Bad Boy and then Arctic Cat.

No worries, I wasn't reading that into your comment.
 
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I’m not a fan of either ditch pickle. I’m still a Polaris man, and walleye is the bomb! 🤘🏻

Polaris is all we've owned for doing our mail route and personal use.
All the recent recalls and stop use incidents they've had aside, they have all been extremely reliable.
Started out with an old 80s era 440 with 136" track, newest 2 sleds are a '22 650 RMK Pro Matryx 155" and a '23 550 Voyager 155" Still have a '08 600 Shift 155" and a '14 Indy 550 144" as backups.
 
Polaris is all we've owned for doing our mail route and personal use.
All the recent recalls and stop use incidents they've had aside, they have all been extremely reliable.
Started out with an old 80s era 440 with 136" track, newest 2 sleds are a '22 650 RMK Pro Matryx 155" and a '23 550 Voyager 155" Still have a '08 600 Shift 155" and a '14 Indy 550 144" as backups.
I might have had an hand in the specs for your 08’s springs and shocks. I was working solely on the ‘08 Snocross sled in ‘07 when I left Polaris, but prior to that, I managed all rear suspensions and all springs and shocks for all models. If there were no changes from ‘07 to ‘08, they would be from my time managing those specs. Hopefully the ride’s good. If not, well, the Shift models had a low price point. We did what we could. 😬 🤣
 
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I might have had an hand in the specs for your 08’s springs and shocks. I was working solely on the ‘08 Snocross sled in ‘07 when I left Polaris, but prior to that, I managed all rear suspensions and all springs and shocks for all models. If there were no changes from ‘07 to ‘08, they would be from my time managing those specs. Hopefully the ride’s good. If not, well, the Shift models had a low price point. We did what we could. 😬 🤣

It uses the IQ Chassis and it was developed for the 2006 model year, so that fits your time frame.
 
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