A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

[Chris]

When I've talked to Blaine about the Savvy, he points out the upper arms being as high as they can be without chopping into the tub. That is why it requires the body lift. It seems he would go higher, but the Savvy target audience wants a reasonably intact tub. The JW uppers are not as high, and have the option to go even lower. That is going to bring the instant center closer and lower than Savvy. Less antisquat?

I'd heard that about the Savvy mid-arm as well, and it makes sense. Most people probably don't want to go cutting into their tub, especially since a lot of us drive these on the street as well as off-road.

I guess all this goes to show is there there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'm sure someone like Dave or Blaine could come up with a number of different ways to build a suspension, but ultimately, will one really be better than the other? Well, I suppose that all depends on it's intended purpose, what you plan to do with it, and what all is done to the vehicle it's going on.

Everyone seems to like the JW mid-arm, but everyone also seems to love the Savvy mid-arm.

My personal choice would be whichever of the two has less inherent bind and is more "slinky" (for lack of a better term). I want the suspension to cycle as easily as possible with as minimal bind as possible.

 

[Clint Rivera]

That makes sense, because he actually uses rubber bushings on one end of the links, which explains why he is doing that. I was always curious why he didn’t just use JJs. Now I know.

So in your opinion, the Savvy mid-arm would actually be a better option as far as rock crawling and less inherent bind?

It's better all around and 0 bind. The limitation will be the body and tires.

 

[Chris]

It's better all around and 0 bind. The limitation will be the body and tires.

That's what I thought too.

Chris Sines was telling me he's driven both the Savvy and the JW mid-arm off-road, and he was saying that the JW feels much more stable and planted. I don't know what that means necessarily, but I suspect it has to do with the roll center being much different due in part to the track bar.

Of course Chris Sines and Dave work together, so I have to suspect there's a bit of bias involved, which is to be expected.

 

[jjvw]

That's what I thought too.

Chris Sines was telling me he's driven both the Savvy and the JW mid-arm off-road, and he was saying that the JW feels much more stable and planted. I don't know what that means necessarily, but I suspect it has to do with the roll center being much different due in part to the track bar.

....

Don't forget the rubber bushings adding to the resistance to roll.

Personally, I liked the idea that my links would be neutral in the suspension's movement. That is a reason I like Jonny Joints.

 

[Clint Rivera]

That's what I thought too.

Chris Sines was telling me he's driven both the Savvy and the JW mid-arm off-road, and he was saying that the JW feels much more stable and planted. I don't know what that means necessarily, but I suspect it has to do with the roll center being much different due in part to the track bar.

Of course Chris Sines and Dave work together, so I have to suspect there's a bit of bias involved, which is to be expected.

Did the savvy rig have sway bars? It's easy to make something feel stable if the suspension doesn't move. Unless the two rigs were identical other than the link setup, you're comparing apples and lawn chairs.

The rear outboard does a lot for stability.

I may have lost it somewhere in the thread, but why exactly are you doing a mid arm in the first place?

 

[Chris]

Don't forget the rubber bushings adding to the resistance to roll.

Personally, I liked the idea that my links would be neutral in the suspension's movement. That is a reason I like Jonny Joints.

Yes, I could see how those rubber bushings would totally add resistance to the roll. That's another thing I like about the JJs, they're neutral with the suspensions movement.

Did the savvy rig have sway bars? It's easy to make something feel stable if the suspension doesn't move. Unless the two rigs were identical other than the link setup, you're comparing apples and lawn chairs.

The rear outboard does a lot for stability.

I didn't ask him, that's a good question though. And you're right about all things being equal other than the link setup.

I think (and correct if I'm wrong) that perhaps what Dave has done (and there's nothing wrong with this) is build a budget minded mid-arm suspension that performs really well, but won't break the bank.

I'm only speculating, but given the cost of one of his setups, it's certainly cheaper than the Savvy setup (plus installation).

 

[k-huevo]

I looked through JW's facebook page, and some of the speculative questions in this thread are addressed there. A video of a JW midarm equipped Jeep on the rocks, and comments regarding reasoning behind the rear setup. I thought his comment about rear arm angle and rear hop was interesting.

 

[Chris]

I looked through JW's facebook page, and some of the speculative questions in this thread are addressed there. A video of a JW midarm equipped Jeep on the rocks, and comments regarding reasoning behind the rear setup. I thought his comment about rear arm angle and rear hop was interesting.

You should post some of those comments, I'd actually be curious to read them without having to dig for them.

 

[Chris]

For what it's worth, he said he would install the Savvy mid-arm for me. While I could do that, I'm just not particularly sure that I want to take the chance that I could end up waiting months on end.

 

[jjvw]

For what it's worth, he said he would install the Savvy mid-arm for me. While I could do that, I'm just not particularly sure that I want to take the chance that I could end up waiting months on end.

I don't know anything about this other shop, but I would absolutely trust Dave to not only install the Savvy kit but also get the details sorted out. The big issue is the scheduling. He shouldn't take the Jeep until he can actually work on it.

 

[Chris]

I don't know anything about this other shop, but I would absolutely trust Dave to not only install the Savvy kit but also get the details sorted out. The big issue is the scheduling. He shouldn't take the Jeep until he can actually work on it.

That's what I intend to tell him tomorrow. I'll let you install the Savvy, but I would like to take my Jeep home and bring it back to you when you're ready.

However, I'm worried he might tell me he's ready for it now, and then I end up waiting months again, just like he was "ready" for it the first time.

According to the other guy who works there, there's a number of vehicles ahead of me that are really, really big projects (full width axles, mid-arms, etc, etc.).

 

[jjvw]

You should post some of those comments, I'd actually be curious to read them without having to dig for them.

Look for the post by Jeremy Ray. Finally ran pritchet canyon.

Dave talks about hops, Rubicon Express and how the Metalcloak long arm is a copy.

These are the kits that squat in the rear during a climb and pull the front end off the ground. Look how smooth and controlled the red LJ is with his mid arm. That is how mine behaves.

 

[psrivats]

I don't know anything about this other shop, but I would absolutely trust Dave to not only install the Savvy kit but also get the details sorted out. The big issue is the scheduling. He shouldn't take the Jeep until he can actually work on it.

This is what I've been suggesting to Chris as well for either Savvy or JW mid arm, whichever he ends up choosing.

 

[Chris]

Look for the post by Jeremy Ray. Finally ran pritchet canyon.

Dave talks about hops, Rubicon Express and how the Metalcloak long arm is a copy.

These are the kits that squat in the rear during a climb and pull the front end off the ground. Look how smooth and controlled the red LJ is with his mid arm. That is how mine behaves.

Yep, I saw that right before you posted this actually. That's what I want too. I don't want that squat in the rear with the front end rising up. I see that happen on a number of rigs, and I do not want that at all. I've seen it get to the point where the front end actually starts to rise up so much that it looks like the Jeep might flip over (not sure if it really will?), which is scary.

I noticed how smooth that LJ was. I suspected the Savvy mid-arm is the same way. Jerry raved about the Savvy mid-arm that Blaine let him drive too.

 

[Clint Rivera]

It's pretty easy to have a suspension that doesn't hop. You need low anti-squat which on a parallel 4 link with panhard is going to be. The issue is, you wont be able to raise the anti-squat without binding. Having too low anti squat is as bad as too high.

The best examples of a suspension that will do well on the street and climbing will be something that works well in the KOH EMC. It doesn't hurt to have John Currie driving, but the Savvy rig with pretty much the same setup won - so there's that.

 

[Chris]

It's pretty easy to have a suspension that doesn't hop. You need low anti-squat which on a parallel 4 link with panhard is going to be. The issue is, you wont be able to raise the anti-squat without binding. Having too low anti squat is as bad as too high.

The best examples of a suspension that will do well on the street and climbing will be something that works well in the KOH EMC. It doesn't hurt to have John Currie driving, but the Savvy rig with pretty much the same setup won - so there's that.

I get what you're saying. I find the JW mid-arm to be interesting, especially since the rear is almost the same setup as stock, just with longer links mounted in different places. This entire time (literally) I had thought it was a 4-link triangulated rear with a track bar to reduce the roll center.

I know this doesn't compare entirely to Jeeps, but when I used to be into RC cars, I would build those crawlers. One thing I noticed is that the crawlers I had with the 4-link triangulated rears always seemed to have a lot better articulation with the suspension than the crawlers that had the stock style 4-link setup (non-triangulated) with a track bar.

You could literally sit down and flex the suspension with your hands and it was noticeable to me which one seemed to move around better.

Dave seems to have a reason for everything he does, so I'll bet he has built the suspension he has for a reason. I am however at this point going to go with my gut on this (hopefully it's right) and just install this Savvy mid-arm I have in my garage.

I know that would be going against what Dave wants, but I'm building this for me.

 

[jjvw]

How was today?

 

[Chris]

How was today?

@psrivats and I went out there and talked to Dave and Chris for several hours. Super nice guys, very knowledgable, and I really can't say anything bad at all. I can truly see why even though people may have had experiences similar to mine, no one can really say anything bad... because Dave isn't a bad guy, he's an awesome guy, he's just very busy and isn't very good with managing his time.

Dave has a reason for everything he does. I even asked him about the bent arms, and he said they aren't bent up, they're bent in. Sure enough, when I looked at that red TJ he has in the shop with the mid-arm, they are indeed bent inwards, not upwards. He says he does this for tire clearance and that it has zero effect on the up-travel whatsoever.

Anyhow, we talked and talked about plenty of stuff, but in the end I ended up taking my TJ home with me. I'm going to take it on Monday to the place who did my gears and get a quote on them installing my Savvy mid-arm. If they come in cheaper than the $2900 quote I got from Hamm's Off-Road, I'll go with them, otherwise I'll stick with the original plan and have Hamm's Off-Road install it.

As much as I would love for Dave to work on my rig, I simply don't know when he would realistically get around to it. With the queue of vehicles he has in that parking lot, it could realistically be a year (no kidding).

One question I had for Dave was about my 4" Fabtech coils that came on my Jeep. He said they are roughly 20" uncompressed. He said that if they were longer, he could run a shock with more travel in the front, such as an 11" or 12" as oppose to a 10", which he would have to run with these coils.

I had asked him what he typically uses for springs and he said Currie 4" springs, since they are around 23" uncompressed, or MetalCloak 4.5" springs, since they are the longest uncompressed springs he's seen at around 25".

@jjvw, which springs are you running on your TJ? If I'm going to do this right, I think it might be a good idea for me to order the longest 4" springs I can so that I can use a shock with longer travel and not have to worry about my springs potentially unseating.

Am I wrong?

 

[jjvw]

Currie 4" with LJ rears, but not without some tricks.

Front 22.6" free length, 13.85" travel, 8.75" bind
Rear 17.75" free, 12.75" travel, 5" bind
LJ Rear 18.25" free, 13.25" travel, 5" bind

My measurements for bind are conservative. It is actually a bit less. I calculated the wire diameter at .625" X the winds.

Metalcloak coils are long, but the rears require a bunch of bump stop extension to prevent bind. I forget the number, but it is more extension than I need for other things. It would be interesting to know the bind lengths.

 

[Chris]

Currie 4" with LJ rears, but not without some tricks.

Front 22.6" free length, 13.85" travel, 8.75" bind
Rear 17.75" free, 12.75" travel, 5" bind
LJ Rear 18.25" free, 13.25" travel, 5" bind

What made you run the LJ rears as oppose to the non LJ rears? Was that extra inch worth it?