Should you get a heavy duty fan clutch?

@freedom_in_4low , @Longwhitejeep and @pagrey , I'd be interested in hearing what temps you show if you have an OBDII reader that shows temps when sitting idling for 20 - 30 minutes.


Recorded some data. My house thermometer said it was 99 outside, despite starting this after 8pm. I set the sensor on top of my winch so I would get a good reading of what was actually coming in to the radiator. There was definitely some recirculation of air coming from under the engine compartment and back around. It felt a lot nicer not standing right in front of it.

1. I started logging while idling with the AC off. After 7 or 8 minutes, the ECT had stabilized at about 192.
2. At that point I turned the AC on full fan speed and recirc. You see that as the first blip in the rpm curve where idle jumped from ~650 to ~720. Running half doors with no windows so AC was not getting the benefit of preconditioned intake air. Temp eventually seemed to stabilize at 223.
3. Hand throttled as little as I possibly good to idle up. I didn't notice until I looked at the graph but it was bumping up and down between ~1240 and ~1310. Maybe the extra compressor speed was pulling the suction down enough to cycle the compressor? I didn't hear it, but I was also organizing tools in my garage to kill the time. ECT eventually stabilized at 199.
4. Released hand throttle and turned off AC, opened the hood and started poking around with my IR thermometer. Looks like there was an initial small climb to 203 and then it started falling again before I shut it off. You can definitely see the impact of the AC condenser on the underhood air, in the IAT reading.

1658894652206.png


Other Temperature measurements
AC system
With AC on and normal idle speed I was getting 52° out of the dash vents and a little bit out of the floor at about 70-75°. Condenser was reading 160 in the upper passenger, 150 on the upper and lower driver, and 145 in the lower passenger. I suspect the saturated condensing temp to be in the 150 neighborhood, with the first and last sections performing some desuperheating and subcooling, respectively. 150 corresponds to a pressure of 263 at the condenser, and there's probably a few pounds of pressure drop in the lines and the desuperheating section of the condenser, so that probably puts it in the lower end of the range for 100F ambient.

Cooling system
The IR gun seemed seemed to agree with the ECT sensor so I can probably rule out an erroneously high temp reading (as well as the fact that it stabilized at 192 with no AC which would imply it was being set by the 195 thermostat at that point). IR gun read about 18 degree temperature drop from the radiator inlet to the outlet with the hood open/normal idle/AC off. I have no idea what's normal/expected there. I had visually verified the orientation of the fan but just for fun I put a shred of plastic shopping sack on the end of a pick to serve as an indicator flag, and made sure it was pulling air INTO the radiator and not blowing out of it.

When I shut it down I immediately attempted to move the fan clutch (factory with 130k miles and 16 years of service) and it's just as easy to turn as it is when it's been sitting off overnight, which is also much easier to turn than the brand new Hayden 2791 sitting on my desk. I don't know if that actually tells me anything because I haven't studied the mechanical workings of a viscous fan clutch to even know whether it has to be spinning for the lockup effect to work. Even the FSM is pretty vague on testing a fan clutch...basically you stick a temp probe in front of it, block the radiator and run it and see if it speeds up between 165-185, then remove the radiator block and see if it slows down again somewhere between 180 and 135. By the time you do all that for an "it's at least somewhat working", you could have replaced it.

I plan to repeat this after I replace my factory fan clutch.
 
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Recorded some data. My house thermometer said it was 99 outside, despite starting this after 8pm. I set the sensor on top of my winch so I would get a good reading of what was actually coming in to the radiator. There was definitely some recirculation of air coming from under the engine compartment and back around. It felt a lot nicer not standing right in front of it.

1. I started logging while idling with the AC off. After 7 or 8 minutes, the ECT had stabilized at about 192.
2. At that point I turned the AC on full fan speed and recirc. You see that as the first blip in the rpm curve where idle jumped from ~650 to ~720. Running half doors with no windows so AC was not getting the benefit of preconditioned intake air. Temp eventually seemed to stabilize at 223.
3. Hand throttled as little as I possibly good to idle up. I didn't notice until I looked at the graph but it was bumping up and down between ~1240 and ~1310. Maybe the extra compressor speed was pulling the suction down enough to cycle the compressor? I didn't hear it, but I was also organizing tools in my garage to kill the time. ECT eventually stabilized at 199.
4. Released hand throttle and turned off AC, opened the hood and started poking around with my IR thermometer. Looks like there was an initial small climb to 203 and then it started falling again before I shut it off. You can definitely see the impact of the AC condenser on the underhood air, in the IAT reading.

View attachment 346171

Other Temperature measurements
AC system
With AC on and normal idle speed I was getting 52° out of the dash vents and a little bit out of the floor at about 70-75°. Condenser was reading 160 in the upper passenger, 150 on the upper and lower driver, and 145 in the lower passenger. I suspect the saturated condensing temp to be in the 150 neighborhood, with the first and last sections performing some desuperheating and subcooling, respectively. 150 corresponds to a pressure of 263 at the condenser, and there's probably a few pounds of pressure drop in the lines and the desuperheating section of the condenser, so that probably puts it in the lower end of the range for 100F ambient.

Cooling system
The IR gun seemed seemed to agree with the ECT sensor so I can probably rule out an erroneously high temp reading (as well as the fact that it stabilized at 192 with no AC which would imply it was being set by the 195 thermostat at that point). IR gun read about 18 degree temperature drop from the radiator inlet to the outlet with the hood open/normal idle/AC off. I have no idea what's normal/expected there. I had visually verified the orientation of the fan but just for fun I put a shred of plastic shopping sack on the end of a pick to serve as an indicator flag, and made sure it was pulling air INTO the radiator and not blowing out of it.

When I shut it down I immediately attempted to move the fan clutch (factory with 130k miles and 16 years of service) and it's just as easy to turn as it is when it's been sitting off overnight, which is also much easier to turn than the brand new Hayden 2791 sitting on my desk. I don't know if that actually tells me anything because I haven't studied the mechanical workings of a viscous fan clutch to even know whether it has to be spinning for the lockup effect to work. Even the FSM is pretty vague on testing a fan clutch...basically you stick a temp probe in front of it, block the radiator and run it and see if it speeds up between 165-185, then remove the radiator block and see if it slows down again somewhere between 180 and 135. By the time you do all that for an "it's at least somewhat working", you could have replaced it.

I plan to repeat this after I replace my factory fan clutch.

Thats some good info.
 
I went to Hayden and looked up Mopar part #68064765AA (Fan Clutch for 2001-2006 4.0L engines) and saw the usual 2771 and 2971. I was surprised to see the 2781.

I got curious as to what the one on my LJ looks like so I checked. The space between the nut and fan body on my LJ is short, like that on the 2781. It does not look like the 2771 or 2971. I'll check more as I can and see if its aftermarket but it looks aged like the other original-ish parts.

However, why is the 2781 not considered here in this discussion?

Is it because it also listed as is a "heavy duty" and not "severe duty"? Just curious.

Fan_Clutch_Options.png
 
just got done swapping mine out.

It was labeled Delphi, and doesn't look like exactly like any of the fan clutches previously posted in this thread.

PXL_20220729_184150563.jpg


Here it is from the back, next to the 2791.

PXL_20220729_170321989.jpg


Since I'm not the first owner I can't with 100% certainty claim that it's factory, but the patina seems consistent with other components, Delphi is a major OEM, and I don't see that a Delphi replacement is available now. Lastly, doing an image search of "delphi fan clutch wrangler" turned up a handful of identical looking used clutches from old eBay listings.

I found this on the front of the fan, facing the back of the fan clutch. I'm not sure how water would get on that face of the fan without starting from the middle, so I wonder if this is a sign that that the viscous silicone has leaked out. I considered the water pump, but I don't know how coolant would make it around the pulley. Maybe it's nothing. I cleaned it up so if I ever have a reason to look at it again I can see if the streaks are back.
PXL_20220729_170342125.jpg


I did find some traces of evaporation on the water pump, but they don't look long term or recent. When I bought the LJ it had a significant thermostat housing gasket leak which was running down the water pump on it's way to the ground, so this may be leftover residue from that. I don't see anything around the water pump weep hole.

PXL_20220729_172717527.jpg


Screenshot_20220729-122822.png
 
Do they really need to be preemptively replaced?

Probably not but I don't really like the way mine is getting hot at idle so I figured I'd try the least expensive and easiest thing first. I can repeat the testing I did above to see if it made any difference, and if not, my clutch was probably fine.

Another thing I forgot to mention is I put a crosshatch on my water pump pulley with some 400 grit emery cloth. The surface my belt was riding on looked immaculately polished, and the numbers rubbed off of my belt more quickly than expected when I replaced it last year, which might indicate that it's slipping at speed. I could tell afterward it took a lot more effort to spin the water pump against the belt.
 
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I'm like you @freedom_in_4low, not the original owner of my LJ, but it also has the Delphi fan clutch.

This took some work to capture and get into focus, but it's definitely a Delphi.

View attachment 346799

Mine also has the shorter stem (very little space) between fan and attachment nut just like your takeoff fan.

Mine also had the Delthi fan clutch. I am sure that it is a replacement one, as there are a lot of scratches on the install nut
 
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Mine also had the Delthi fan clutch. I am sure that it is a replacement one, as there are a lot of scratches on the install nut

Maybe a replacement, but I've found some NOS, Mopar-boxed and labeled, fan clutches on ebay that were definitely Delphi made. Even an older one (90s era) that was marked "Delco Classics USA".
 
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I went to Hayden and looked up Mopar part #68064765AA (Fan Clutch for 2001-2006 4.0L engines) and saw the usual 2771 and 2971. I was surprised to see the 2781.

I got curious as to what the one on my LJ looks like so I checked. The space between the nut and fan body on my LJ is short, like that on the 2781. It does not look like the 2771 or 2971. I'll check more as I can and see if its aftermarket but it looks aged like the other original-ish parts.

However, why is the 2781 not considered here in this discussion?

Is it because it also listed as is a "heavy duty" and not "severe duty"? Just curious.

View attachment 346751

I'm not sure about the 2781. I didn't even know that the 2791 was an option until @pagrey posted about it.
 
Maybe a replacement, but I've found some NOS, Mopar-boxed and labeled, fan clutches on ebay that were definitely Delphi made. Even an older one (90s era) that was marked "Delco Classics USA".

Also possible the water pump got changed out and the old fan clutch put back on.
 
I went to Hayden and looked up Mopar part #68064765AA (Fan Clutch for 2001-2006 4.0L engines) and saw the usual 2771 and 2971. I was surprised to see the 2781.

I got curious as to what the one on my LJ looks like so I checked. The space between the nut and fan body on my LJ is short, like that on the 2781. It does not look like the 2771 or 2971. I'll check more as I can and see if its aftermarket but it looks aged like the other original-ish parts.

However, why is the 2781 not considered here in this discussion?

Is it because it also listed as is a "heavy duty" and not "severe duty"? Just curious.

View attachment 346751

One thing I see as far as differences. The shaft on the 2771 and 2791 stick out of the clutch more than the 2781, which may make the fan blades not fully in the fan shroud with the 2781. Not sure though.

The 2771 and 2781 are both listed as 70-90% of the shaft speed when engaged and 25-35% of the shaft speed when disengaged.

The 2791 is listed as 80-90% of the shaft speed when engaged and 20-30% of the shaft speed when disengaged.
 
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One thing I see as far as differences. The shaft on the 2771 and 2791 stick out of the clutch more than the 2781, which may make the fan blades not fully in the fan shroud with the 2781. Not sure though.

The 2771 and 2781 are both listed as 70-90% of the shaft speed when engaged and 25-35% of the shaft speed when disengaged.

The 2791 is listed as 80-90% of the shaft speed when engaged and 20-30% of the shaft speed when disengaged.

I trimmed down the spec sheet in Hayden's 2019 e-catalog to get the details for the 2771, 2781, and 2791 all in one place.

Here:

Hayden_Fan_Clutch_Specs_2019.png


Yes, fan mount height is different on the 2781; about 1/2" shorter. It would sit the furthest back from the radiator, the 2791 sits the closest to the radiator, and the 2771 sits somewhere in the middle.

Another physical difference is that the 2791 is smaller in diameter than both the 2771 and 2781. I reason it needs to be smaller because with its thicker body and additional fins, its overall mass would be too great if left at the 7.2" diameter; therefore its reduction in overall diameter is to compensate for this.

Side note:
All the above applies to fans for the 4.0L.

If you use the first part of Hayden's "printed" e-catalog and look up a fan by application (I used the TJ model years), then for the 4.0L it recommends the 2771. No surprises.

If you use this e-catalog to look up the 2.5L engine you are recommended their 2625 fan.

Hayden_2625.png


I just want to avoid confusion between the two engines and what Hayden says fits each model.
 
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Repeated the test with the 2791 fan clutch installed, as closely as I could. I was getting some hot air recirculating around the bumper and back into the grill that was steadily increasing the inlet air temperature. I didn't see this on the first test, but I'm wondering if maybe the ambient was dropping at the same rate that the recirc was increasing the temperature, so it just stayed flat...while this test had a more steady ambient (and a hair more humidity) so the inlet air gradually climbed. In the end, at the end of the AC on, normal idle phase, I was reading 103 instead of the 100 I started at. The IAT was also reading about +5 from the first test, which could have a number of explanations.

1659578617391.png


In conclusion...ECT tracked almost perfectly with the previous test plus the difference in ambient...so the new fan clutch made not one shred of difference. I do notice more noise at crawl speed so it does seem to be moving more air, but air must just not be my problem, if there even is a problem. This is really kindof a torture test of worst case scenario - idling for minimum airflow, combined with maximum load on the AC by running hot, humid ambient air instead of cabin recirc. Even at only 100 ambient, the humidity I'm running leaves the incoming air with enthalpy equivalent to about 127° in the desert and a dew point that doesn't even naturally occur in a desert environment. I might run the test yet again with the soft top windows and full doors installed, but we may be running out of 100 degree days so I'll have to do it soon.
 
Repeated the test with the 2791 fan clutch installed, as closely as I could. I was getting some hot air recirculating around the bumper and back into the grill that was steadily increasing the inlet air temperature. I didn't see this on the first test, but I'm wondering if maybe the ambient was dropping at the same rate that the recirc was increasing the temperature, so it just stayed flat...while this test had a more steady ambient (and a hair more humidity) so the inlet air gradually climbed. In the end, at the end of the AC on, normal idle phase, I was reading 103 instead of the 100 I started at. The IAT was also reading about +5 from the first test, which could have a number of explanations.

View attachment 348111

In conclusion...ECT tracked almost perfectly with the previous test plus the difference in ambient...so the new fan clutch made not one shred of difference. I do notice more noise at crawl speed so it does seem to be moving more air, but air must just not be my problem, if there even is a problem. This is really kindof a torture test of worst case scenario - idling for minimum airflow, combined with maximum load on the AC by running hot, humid ambient air instead of cabin recirc. Even at only 100 ambient, the humidity I'm running leaves the incoming air with enthalpy equivalent to about 127° in the desert and a dew point that doesn't even naturally occur in a desert environment. I might run the test yet again with the soft top windows and full doors installed, but we may be running out of 100 degree days so I'll have to do it soon.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that hot idle scenario with TJ not moving, and AC 100% on, is the worst case scenario.
I am running such a hot idle test in my garage, with Garage door open, and I see that in like 30 minutes the air temperature in the garage became ls hot as hell. AC starts be weaker, etc.
In case after after all work that I am planning, with flush, new Mopar radiator, fan clutch and thermostat it is still getting little hot (ECT reaching 240F), I am planning to add small auxiliary radiator with electric fan. Will locate it in the back, close to the Derale Transmission Cooler. It’s main goal will be yo add more cooling for idle.
I don’t know yet whether I will need it not, but this is the backup plan.
 
Maybe I am wrong, but I think that hot idle scenario with TJ not moving, and AC 100% on, is the worst case scenario.
I am running such a hot idle test in my garage, with Garage door open, and I see that in like 30 minutes the air temperature in the garage became ls hot as hell. AC starts be weaker, etc.
In case after after all work that I am planning, with flush, new Mopar radiator, fan clutch and thermostat it is still getting little hot (ECT reaching 240F), I am planning to add small auxiliary radiator with electric fan. Will locate it in the back, close to the Derale Transmission Cooler. It’s main goal will be yo add more cooling for idle.
I don’t know yet whether I will need it not, but this is the backup plan.

Yes, I agree.
 
The chart you posted says the bolt circle for the 2791 is different from the 2771 so the chart you posted is wrong right?

Good catch.

That's a screen capture from Hayden's 2019 catalog that I whittled down to just the 3 fan clutches in question. They must have transposed that bad number (2.620) from the next column over.

I checked their website, and yes, Hayden lists the Fan Bolt Circle measurement on the 2791 as 3.25". Everything else between the two seems to line up though.

Sorry for any confusion.

EDIT:

I tried again to go to Hayden and get an updated/corrected chart, the result is below.

However on this one, Hayden transposed different data!

This time they put the Bolt/Nut Type figure (i.e. how how you mount the cooling fan to the back of the fan clutch; 5/16th-18 (4 holes)) instead of the correct data into the Pilot Diameter, measurement "B" column (i.e. where the fan clutch mounts to the water pump), which should (I believe) be M30x1.5.

Hayden_Fan_Chart_(Corrected).png


I'd have never thought all this would be kicked off because I looked up a fan via the Mopar part number. LOL.
 
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