TJ LED front turn signals

[MikeE024]

You haven't done shit. Post pictures of your setup in detail fuck tard.

I haven't looked at his jeep but he 100% helped me understand the process when I did this to mine months ago. He helped me a bunch to understand what the heck was going on. Actually, I'm pretty sure he sent me a video early on, but it doesn't matter since I've done this myself. I'd be happy to provide you with a video if you want me to.

Summary:

I have two white/yellow wires (one to the turn signal and one to the side marker) that run in the wire bundle on the top of each side of the engine bay.

I put the resistor on the white/yellow wire that goes to the side marker. This dims the running light output of the marker so that the turn signal function (that does not contain a resistor in series will blink at a higher brightness). If I didn't do this, I'd be running constant brightness that will be the same as my turn signal brightness so it won't blink at all. I know this to be true because this happened to me. I then dialed it in further by choosing the resistor value that dimmed down the running light so that it still matched my front lights but was also differentiated well enough from my turn signal (meaning not so bright that it's hard to tell the difference).

 

[MikeE024]

The problem is no one is telling people who want to install LEDs that they won't work unless they're prepared to modify the wiring and install things like bridge rectifiers which will cause most to develop a blank stare.

The fix is not easy and not many owners are up to it. You go right ahead and claim it's easy, I'll go right ahead saying it's not as easy for most people as you claim it is. Not to mention you'll end up doing extra unplanned work to just exchange one kind of a bulb for another kind of a bulb.

I agree that this will be above most people's heads unless it's explained which wires are affected and where to install the resistor and the diodes. There is no need for a bridge rectifier.

Cutting into wiring has been done many times by people in our jeeps. You yourself have changed how the locker switches are enabled and that might be over people's heads even though it's easy to you (because you know how to do it). Knowledge is freedom.

 

[MikeE024]

You are reading two views, yes, one from someone who HAS installed them and knows how to make it work (actually two people in this thread), and ill-informed conjecture from a bunch who have not.

I’ll agree with the above only enough to say that there are indeed 2 views… One view is held by those who seem to insist that doing so adds some type of value; largely only ego related, and another view by the rest of society who questions “Why bother?”…

Many people have modified their jeeps in many ways over the years. We do it because it's fun and/or because we have made a change that requires another change. Since when do things need to be so rigid and "my way or the highway" in here. That's pretty lame and not in line with the spirit of this forum.

Plenty of people don't need to change the speakers, change their seats, add heat seaters, or put in a tummy tuck (or associated MML, etc). Yet, people modify things all the time. It's illogical to assume someone is merely egotistical for doing a modification that you don't see the value in doing.

 

[pagrey]

choosing the resistor value that dimmed down the running light so that it still matched my front lights but was also differentiated well enough from my turn signal (meaning not so bright that it's hard to tell the difference).

It sounds a little like your setup isn't operating like a stock TJ. With the lights off both the signal and marker lights should flash together, with the lights on both should alternate on and off fully. I don't understand what you mean by hard to tell the difference, when would this be an issue? It seems a little like both the videos posted and your description don't really match stock operation. Unless I am not understanding the part about it being hard to tell the difference. Is there a time that would be an issue for the stock setup?

 

[WestCoastDan]

Many people have modified their jeeps in many ways over the years. We do it because it's fun and/or because we have made a change that requires another change. Since when do things need to be so rigid and "my way or the highway" in here. That's pretty lame and not in line with the spirit of this forum.

Plenty of people don't need to change the speakers, change their seats, add heat seaters, or put in a tummy tuck (or associated MML, etc). Yet, people modify things all the time. It's illogical to assume someone is merely egotistical for doing a modification that you don't see the value in doing.

The point to me on this issue isn't really about the turn signals anymore. It's about how he came across saying others don't know what they are doing. It was derogatory and unnecessary.
I'm sure plenty of folks here could figure out one of several ways to achieve LED turn signal function, but we don't see them pounding their chest like Tarzan over it.
Mostly because of the attitude he presented, I found his mod to be a waste of time for no gain... the lights flash; we get it. Guess what, they flashed before the mod too.
He probably doesn't even use the turn signals most of the time anyway.

He's not new to the page, so he should know that he can't just come in here acting like these damned monkeys and expect to not get some words tossed his way.

 

[pagrey]

It's about how he came across saying others don't know what they are doing. It was derogatory and unnecessary.

I can't really tell if you are talking about me, most of my posts are derogatory and unnecessary but overall I agree with everything you've posted. Dammed monkey, yep me.

 

[machoheadgames]

I can't really tell if you are talking about me, most of my posts are derogatory and unnecessary but overall I agree with everything you've posted. Dammed monkey, yep me.

Don't worry, he's talking about me.

 

[pagrey]

The forum would be a much nicer place without you and all your bullshit.

I don't particularly enjoy this.

Now….fuck off.

But I respect this.

It appears you have a good sense of humor about it regardless.

 

[machoheadgames]

The point to me on this issue isn't really about the turn signals anymore. It's about how he came across saying others don't know what they are doing. It was derogatory and unnecessary.
I'm sure plenty of folks here could figure out one of several ways to achieve LED turn signal function, but we don't see them pounding their chest like Tarzan over it.
Mostly because of the attitude he presented, I found his mod to be a waste of time for no gain... the lights flash; we get it. Guess what, they flashed before the mod too.
He probably doesn't even use the turn signals most of the time anyway.

He's not new to the page, so he should know that he can't just come in here acting like these damned monkeys and expect to not get some words tossed his way.
View attachment 314926

You are loaded with assumptions there. First, I didn't create this mod. Steel city 06 (not tagging him because I'm not dragging him into this show) first posted this solution here, and Water Dog on Jeep forum and Wrangler forum (he's passed away now) was advising this to people back in around 2015-2017 time frame. All I did was do it successfully and pass on the info. And not once have I asked to be praised for it? So I don't know where you think I'm being derogatory or pounding my chest like Tarzan. Literally all I have done is provide the info and then defend myself when people who have not done this modification started throwing criticism.

If you go back and read, you will see that I proposed my solution and was immediately met with something along the lines of "it's too complicated for an average Jeeper to fix their Jeep to run LED turn signals"....and then proceeded to talk all about bridge rectifiers and whatever else. Things I DID NOT use to accomplish the function.

I explained my solution and still was met with criticism. Again, by someone who has not done this. Then you hopped in and agreed LEDs aren't worth it, yada yada. Which is your opinion and you have every right to that. You don't feel they are worth it, and that is fair. I don't share the opinion.

Then a day or so later I was told how terrible my solution is (again, not my solution but what I installed per the findings of other forum members both here and other forums) by someone who still hasn't done this. I was told about how the resistors I use are a terrible idea because they are big and hot. Both of which couldn't be further from the truth. But who cares, right? It came from someone with 40,000 posts so it must be accurate. Nobody cares about the personal experience aspect proving it wrong.

For the record, a resistor only gets hot if it's used A) to take the place of a bulb or B) undersized for the application. If you use a resistor sized appropriately for what you need it to do, if a high enough ohm rating is used, there will be 0 heat whatsoever.

I don't really have anything else to say except the info is out there. I didn't come in here slinging shit and if you read my posts over, you will see that. Besides my first 2-3 posts providing info, the rest was all defense. But, end of the day it doesn't really matter.

 

[machoheadgames]

It sounds a little like your setup isn't operating like a stock TJ. With the lights off both the signal and marker lights should flash together, with the lights on both should alternate on and off fully. I don't understand what you mean by hard to tell the difference, when would this be an issue? It seems a little like both the videos posted and your description don't really match stock operation. Unless I am not understanding the part about it being hard to tell the difference. Is there a time that would be an issue for the stock setup?

His setup is not operating like a stock TJ because he did the same thing I did which was rewire the side markers. The side markers in stock form rely on the front bulbs for ground (you probably know that) and putting an LED in the front socket screws the side marker's ability to reach ground. The workaround is to rewire the side marker to be independent of the front socket for grounding. It gets its own grounding, it gets a parking and turn signal input each (spliced together), and a resistor is put on the parking lamp to run the LED at a dimmer brightness as a running lamp. The turn signal stays unresisted so that when it gets power, it overrides the dimmer parking lamp function to create a high-low blink, much like the front bulbs with 2 filaments/circuits do. The diodes are put on the turn signal and parking lamp wires to keep the two from feeding each other power when they shouldn't. Since those two wires are then spliced together, the remaining side marker wire gets hooked straight to ground. This, in effect, runs a 2-wire, single circuit bulb, like a 3-wire, dual circuit/filament bulb: bulb blinks on-off-on during the day, and bright-dim-bright at night.

You could instead install a 3 wire fixture in the side marker location but that would have to be custom. If you want it to look remotely stock, the diode/resistor trick is the way to go.

 

[MikeE024]

His setup is not operating like a stock TJ because he did the same thing I did which was rewire the side markers. The side markers in stock form rely on the front bulbs for ground (you probably know that) and putting an LED in the front socket screws the side marker's ability to reach ground. The workaround is to rewire the side marker to be independent of the front socket for grounding. It gets its own grounding, it gets a parking and turn signal input each (spliced together), and a resistor is put on the parking lamp to run the LED at a dimmer brightness as a running lamp. The turn signal stays unresisted so that when it gets power, it overrides the dimmer parking lamp function to create a high-low blink, much like the front bulbs with 2 filaments/circuits do. The diodes are put on the turn signal and parking lamp wires to keep the two from feeding each other power when they shouldn't. Since those two wires are then spliced together, the remaining side marker wire gets hooked straight to ground. This, in effect, runs a 2-wire, single circuit bulb, like a 3-wire, dual circuit/filament bulb: bulb blinks on-off-on during the day, and bright-dim-bright at night.

You could instead install a 3 wire fixture in the side marker location but that would have to be custom. If you want it to look remotely stock, the diode/resistor trick is the way to go.

Now we are getting somewhere more harmonious and useful

 

[MikeE024]

@machoheadgames @Jerry Bransford @pagrey

In case you are interested, I double-checked to see if my 1W-rated metal-film axial resistors would get hot since my side marker lights are rated at 3.4W.

For the test, I hooked up to an LED that measures higher than that —> 5.5W (12.8v *.43 amps).

The positive lead of the LED was downstream from the resistor, which was downstream from the positive terminal on my battery.

After being hooked for 10 minutes, the temperature of the resistor never increased (stayed at 59F ambient temperature).

While hooked up, the LED dimmed quite a bit, and the 100-ohm resistor tested at 101.7 ohms, so I know it was doing its job.

I didn't find any issues with heat (I needed to verify this for myself and figured I'd share). Also, during the original install, I enclosed the resistors with heat shrink splices to add rigidity & stress relieve the resistor (this solved my fear of the resistor breaking under stress and doubled as insulation). I purchased some 3W resistors but I think I'm good with what's currently installed.

 

[pagrey]

Generally putting 1W through a 1W resistor all day long isn't great but these aren't exactly on all day and probably worst case the resistor pops and the whole thing has a fuse on it. I test most of my LEDs on the bench before I use them. Most pull less current than they are rated. If it dims with your setup I'd bet the current/power is pretty low and you'll be fine as you found. It doesn't really matter in this case but the power rating is more than "will it catch on fire?" Out of curiosity did you measure the current or voltage drop on the resistor when you tested it?

The head game wont see any of this, you probably don't want to mention my username next to his, it might cause his blood pressure to go out of spec or something.

 

[machoheadgames]

Generally putting 1W through a 1W resistor all day long isn't great but these aren't exactly on all day and probably worst case the resistor pops and the whole thing has a fuse on it. I test most of my LEDs on the bench before I use them. Most pull less current than they are rated. If it dims with your setup I'd bet the current/power is pretty low and you'll be fine as you found. It doesn't really matter in this case but the power rating is more than "will it catch on fire?" Out of curiosity did you measure the current or voltage drop on the resistor when you tested it?

The head game wont see any of this, you probably don't want to mention my username next to his, it might cause his blood pressure to go out of spec or something.

It doesn't work like that. The power rating through a resistor is based on the ohm rating of the resistor itself. What's behind the resistor (in this case the bulb) doesn't matter, as it physically can not pull it's rating because the resistor is blocking that draw.

The way to determine how much power the resistor will draw is

P = V^2 / R

So for example using 1W resistors, and say the vehicle voltage is 14 since that’s about as high as a Jeep will ever go…..

1W = 14^2 / R
1W = 196/R

To safely operate a 1W resistor at 1W of power at 14V you would need the resistor to be 196 ohm or more. So you need to up the ohm rating to make it safe for the application. The ohm rating will block enough flow that the resistor won’t burn up.

If it operated the way you claimed then my 5W LEDs would have smoked my 1/2W resistors in minutes. But they ran at room temp for over a year because they were wired to 560 ohm resistors and the resistors on the circuit were perfectly fit to operate below 1W of power due to the 560 ohm rating lowering the power through them.

This is why when you vary the resistor used you will see far less amperage on the circuit when using an ammeter. Doesn’t matter if the bulb is plugged in or not other than the tiny amount of power the bulb draws to light up from the small amount of resisted power it sees behind the resistor.

Don’t worry, blood pressure is all good.

 

[machoheadgames]

@machoheadgames @Jerry Bransford @pagrey

In case you are interested, I double-checked to see if my 1W-rated metal-film axial resistors would get hot since my side marker lights are rated at 3.4W.

For the test, I hooked up to an LED that measures higher than that —> 5.5W (12.8v *.43 amps).

The positive lead of the LED was downstream from the resistor, which was downstream from the positive terminal on my battery.

After being hooked for 10 minutes, the temperature of the resistor never increased (stayed at 59F ambient temperature).

While hooked up, the LED dimmed quite a bit, and the 100-ohm resistor tested at 101.7 ohms, so I know it was doing its job.

I didn't find any issues with heat (I needed to verify this for myself and figured I'd share). Also, during the original install, I enclosed the resistors with heat shrink splices to add rigidity & stress relieve the resistor (this solved my fear of the resistor breaking under stress and doubled as insulation). I purchased some 3W resistors but I think I'm good with what's currently installed.

View attachment 317387

This checks out with my math. It's really quite simple using that voltage and resistance formula to figure out what applications a resistor will live in vs which they will die in.

A resistor is an electrical device in and of itself which means its leads can be hooked straight to a + and - of a battery and will draw it's own power like anything else. that is precisely what is happening on our LED circuits, only we are slapping an LED inline behind the resistor and it's illuminating from the little bit of power flowing from the resistor after it has been resisted. The LED we are using makes no difference other than you need to use an LED that's bright enough that you can put a healthy amount of ohms on it and it still emit light. Otherwise your required high ohm rating to save the resistor's life will dim the bulb too much to be usable. This is why you specifically needed a bit bigger resistor because you were operating at 100 ohms. 100 ohms shouldn't be used on anything less than about 2W. So you should be fine now.

The resistor will draw X amount of power based on the voltage of the battery it's hooked to and the resistance rating of the resistor. That comes straight from that P=V^2/ R (ohm) formula.

In a 14V system a 1W resistor will draw 1W or less starting at 196 ohms or more. The more ohms, the less power flowing through the resistor. So a 392 ohm 1W resistor will only have 0.5W flowing through it and will live practically forever. This is exactly why my 0.5W 560 ohm resistors worked great for as long as they did. 196 (V^2) / 560 is 0.35W, which is below the 0.5W threshold of the resistors I was using. So it worked just fine.

This also makes me feel good about my 2W resistors. I'm running 470 ohms so I am at 0.41W and using 2W resistors. I expect I will die before those things do, unless somehow a breakage occurred but the heat shrink and tape should prevent premature failure.

 

[machoheadgames]

I will say after reading over it again (not on my phone now) I am surprised your 100 ohm resistors did not get warm when hooked to 12V being they are 1W.

Going off of your 12.8V rating, 12.8x12.8 / 100 ohm would be 1.63W.

This doesn't necessarily mean failure though, it just means you have exceeded it's rating and the resistor could behave unpredictably. I'm sure they are rated below what they can actually handle. It's when you go to something crazy low like 22 ohms where the wattage skyrockets to 5-6W through the resistor and the thing gets smoking hot in no time.

But I would have expected at least some heat with a 1W 100 ohm resistor being used at 12.8V.

 

[pagrey]

Don’t worry, blood pressure is all good.

Glad to hear it and I'm glad to see your post with more details. It would be interesting to know the current through that resistor.

 

[Tangerined]

I will say after reading over it again (not on my phone now) I am surprised your 100 ohm resistors did not get warm when hooked to 12V being they are 1W.

Going off of your 12.8V rating, 12.8x12.8 / 100 ohm would be 1.63W.

This doesn't necessarily mean failure though, it just means you have exceeded it's rating and the resistor could behave unpredictably. I'm sure they are rated below what they can actually handle. It's when you go to something crazy low like 22 ohms where the wattage skyrockets to 5-6W through the resistor and the thing gets smoking hot in no time.

But I would have expected at least some heat with a 1W 100 ohm resistor being used at 12.8V.

The 12.8V is across the resistor and LED combined, the resistor alone isn't seeing the full 12.8V. Easiest way to verify the power being drawn by the resistor is to measure the voltage drop across the resistor with a multimeter and plug that voltage value into the P=(V x V)/R formula.

 

[machoheadgames]

The 12.8V is across the resistor and LED combined, the resistor alone isn't seeing the full 12.8V. Easiest way to verify the power being drawn by the resistor is the measure the voltage drop across the resistor with a multimeter and plug that voltage value into the P=(V x V)/R formula.

Good point. I will have to find a socket and bulb and play around with that and see what I find.

 

[MikeE024]

Glad to hear it and I'm glad to see your post with more details. It would be interesting to know the current through that resistor.

I didn’t check for voltage drop, but I did check current measurements (in series) from the battery to the resistor which was 0.1A and then again in series between the resistor to the LED which tested at 0.03A.

So that’s 0.13A * 12.8v = 1.66W which is basically dead on to the Power rating (W) that Macho came up with.

I’ll try to measure the voltage drop later today.