Try not to laugh too hard

Is it right or safe? I guess, if you never find yourself in a position to need a long 9k pull.

That is the whole point. You can't do a long 9k pull. It isn't possible. If you look at the rating by layer, only the first layer is capable of 9k. It also has a minimum number of wraps (usually about 5) before it can be loaded to full rating. That leaves you with about 7 wraps or so around a 3" drum or roughly 6' where you can actually achieve a 9k pull. Think about that for a second. You have to find an anchor point that is exactly the right distance away so when all the slack is out of your cable and everything is tensioned so you can use your winch at it's rated capacity, it will only do so for about 6'. When the line jumps up to the next layer, the capacity drops roughly 20% because the effective diameter of the drum has increased and the leverage is now against the winch motor.

To each their own, but if I'm going where I need a winch front and rear I'm probably alone and pretty far out so I would probably spend the extra coin on my rig to make it as capable as possible. To cut corners and save 200 bucks just seems silly.

Just kind of ironic because it seems I have read your posts about you designing parts for a certain type of Jeep owner but 4/0 wire is a problem for you. I mean I could see you taking issue if 6ga was suggested, but you seem to know best.

4/0 isn't the problem. The problem is again, knowledge does not equal understanding. The fact that you reference a long 9k pull means you don't understand how winches work but you have a good working knowledge of electrical theory which is nothing but good but you also need to temper that knowledge with the understanding of how things work and why you will never see a 400 amp draw out of your winch.

Yes, I design products, a lot of them and I've been at it for a long time. My goal in every design is to make something work very well without it being overkill that adds unnecessary expense/weight/ or some other attribute that renders the design inelegant. It is easy to throw weight, size, and bulk to a design to overkill it. Just look at some of the control arms out there. Skill and understanding are required when you want a design that is just big enough to get the job done and no bigger than it needs to be.

Looking at what Warn has done with the remote winch hook-up kits, it looks like they do similar. They have an understanding of what works and size the wire accordingly so it isn't me that knows best. ;)
 
Want practical application proof, test your installs. Run close to max pull or stall and check wire temp, if (when) they get warm or hot the current is to much for them.

I meant to address this and didn't. When I designed the Savvy front bumper for the TJ, we tested the prototype. At our camp in JV, it runs downhill enough that if you put a vehicle in neutral, it will roll away fairly quickly. We took the test rig, pulled all the line out to 5 wraps on the drum, hooked up a snatch block (puts more load on the winch plate that way) and then hooked 3 rigs behind the winch rig, all in 4 wheel drive, all with the brakes locked down so they were skidding and the winch rig was also locked down. We winched all 4 rigs with locked down brakes digging furrows in the dirt up the hill and when we were done, I checked the winch, the battery, and the cables. All were fine, just slightly warm to the touch but nothing even remotely uncomfortable to hold onto with your hands.
That was doing something that will almost never be done with the average winch.
 
You can't do a long 9k pull. It isn't possible.

Ok, i should have said a Max load not a 9k pull. Point is under it's heaviest (stall) load, depending on wrap or other condition, the motor will pull max current. So that's a moot point. If it's pulling 9k on the first wrap or 7000 on subsequent wraps the motor is working as hard as it can. It's gear reduction causing less pull not the motor output, stall is stall regardless of actual pulling power.

0 isn't the problem. The problem is again, knowledge does not equal understanding. The fact that you reference a long 9k pull means you don't understand how winches work but you have a good working knowledge of electrical theory which is nothing but good but you also need to temper that knowledge with the understanding of how things work and why you will never see a 400 amp draw out of your winch.

Again, should have referenced a max (stall) pull. Got me.

Yes, I design products, a lot of them and I've been at it for a long time. My goal in every design is to make something work very well without it being overkill

I hope this doesn't apply to axles, brakes, cooling systems etc. I just never know how big the job can get.

I meant to address this and didn't. When I designed the Savvy front bumper for the TJ, we tested the prototype. At our camp in JV, it runs downhill enough that if you put a vehicle in neutral, it will roll away fairly quickly. We took the test rig, pulled all the line out to 5 wraps on the drum, hooked up a snatch block (puts more load on the winch plate that way) and then hooked 3 rigs behind the winch rig, all in 4 wheel drive, all with the brakes locked down so they were skidding and the winch rig was also locked down. We winched all 4 rigs with locked down brakes digging furrows in the dirt up the hill and when we were done, I checked the winch, the battery, and the cables. All were fine, just slightly warm to the touch but nothing even remotely uncomfortable to hold onto with your hands.

Nice internet hyperbole ^^^

Now I don't understand why you called out my particular post when you could have just stated your own opinion on 2ga being acceptable and most sheep would say well it's MrBlaine he must be right. We're at an impasse, nothing wrong with 4/0. Under the right circumstance something is wrong with 2ga.

Based on that I stand by the rest of that particular post of mine you refered to, install auxiliary battery with your 2ga cables and be done with it, because there is a whole other discussion of how long a single battery and alternator can supply the kind of power required for either setup for a difficult pull.

Most people don't use their winch, those that do, most don't use them hard so it is what it is. 2ga works, until it doesn't.
 
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Nice internet hyperbole ^^^

Which part do you think was an exaggerated claim not to be take literally?

Now I don't understand why you called out my particular post when you could have just stated your own opinion on 2ga being acceptable and most sheep would say well it's MrBlaine he must be right. We're at an impasse, nothing wrong with 4/0. Under the right circumstance something is wrong with 2ga.

Based on that I stand by the rest of that particular post of mine you refered to, install auxiliary battery with your 2ga cables and be done with it, because there is a whole other discussion of how long a single battery and alternator can supply the kind of power required for either setup for a difficult pull.

Most people don't use their winch, those that do, most don't use them hard so it is what it is. 2ga works, until it doesn't.

You're starting to get offensive and that won't go well.
 
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I meant to address this and didn't. When I designed the Savvy front bumper for the TJ, we tested the prototype. At our camp in JV, it runs downhill enough that if you put a vehicle in neutral, it will roll away fairly quickly. We took the test rig, pulled all the line out to 5 wraps on the drum, hooked up a snatch block (puts more load on the winch plate that way) and then hooked 3 rigs behind the winch rig, all in 4 wheel drive, all with the brakes locked down so they were skidding and the winch rig was also locked down. We winched all 4 rigs with locked down brakes digging furrows in the dirt up the hill and when we were done, I checked the winch, the battery, and the cables. All were fine, just slightly warm to the touch but nothing even remotely uncomfortable to hold onto with your hands.
That was doing something that will almost never be done with the average winch.

Besides what does this have to do with the topic? Front bumper with 3ft cables vs. Rear mount and 15 foot cables?

Kind of apples to oranges misleading comparison wouldn't you say?

Refer to post 26 as those installs were what I was referencing.

I've experienced front pulls with warm+ cables so I still call hyperbole.
 
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The problem is again, knowledge does not equal understanding. The fact that you reference a long 9k pull means you don't understand how winches work but you have a good working knowledge of electrical theory which is nothing but good but you also need to temper that knowledge with the understanding of how things work

Oh, and I meant to address this:

hooked up a snatch block (puts more load on the winch plate that way)

More load on plate yes, but doesn't it double the pulling capacity that effectively reduces the electrical load on the winch? Further skewing your point?

Just trying to" understand how things work".
 
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What about the Jeeples here that don't have Facebook??

Sorry, I don't do Facebook either, my wife showed me this and I had her text me the link so I could share it. Thanks though, because now I can tell her I'm not the ONLY person left in the free world without Facebook.
 
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Oh, and I meant to address this:



More load on plate yes, but doesn't it double the pulling capacity that effectively reduces the electrical load on the winch? Further skewing your point?

Just trying to" understand how things work".
It does almost double pulling ability for a given output but as you pointed out, how close the winch motor is to stall determines the rest and since you are still a doubting Thomas, I take it you've never seen 4 rigs being drug with all their tires locked up.
 
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It does almost double pulling ability for a given output but as you pointed out, how close the winch motor is to stall determines the rest and since you are still a doubting Thomas, I take it you've never seen 4 rigs being drug with all their tires locked up.

Don't know what happened to my last post (assume mod deleted) and yours has been censored (you mad?) so I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

I'll leave you to your flock.
 
Hey, if people weren’t passionate about what they do, there wouldn’t be any decent stuff out there. Iron sharpening iron is the way I view some aspects of the above and deleted discussion. It’s when you are no longer able to be sharpened that you’ve lost your edge. Thanks, because I learned some things.
 
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Don't know what happened to my last post (assume mod deleted) and yours has been censored (you mad?) so I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

I'll leave you to your flock.
Bottom line is if you are trying to use a 12v winch in situations that you need 4/0 cable, then you're using the wrong tool for the job. At that point, you need to build a custom hydraulic set up with a duty cycle that doesn't care how long you use it. Or, spend big bucks and convert to a 24 volt Gigglepin or similar. No, I'm not mad, I just don't suffer fools lightly.
 
No, I'm not mad, I just don't suffer fools ligh
Can't let it go huh? I'm good with that. Where have you disproved anything I have posted?

Because I haven't seen 4 rigs pulled up hill with brakes locked up? You should post a poll and see if I'm the only one. Besides as I said that was a flawed comparison with a front winch and snatch block, we are discussing a rear winch and 15 ft run of wire.

Or is it because you think as cable spools and winch capacity drops the current drops? As you said below.
What is even harder to wrap your head around is when the amp draw is the highest. They show the highest amp draw at the rated winch capacity. It can not pull at the rated capacity unless it is on the first layer of line which coincidentally is when the winch has leverage most in it's favor. Contemplate that for a moment.

Wrong, just wrong, so who doesnt understand? A motor can only pull so hard so if it loses capacity due to loss of mechanical advantage because of spooling it doesnt lower the current draw of a max pull, the motor is pulling just as hard and as much current on the last wrap as it is the first, contemplate that, sir.

That line of argument sent you of on this tangent of dribble to baffle with 2GA.

That is the whole point. You can't do a long 9k pull. It isn't possible. If you look at the rating by layer, only the first layer is capable of 9k. It also has a minimum number of wraps (usually about 5) before it can be loaded to full rating. That leaves you with about 7 wraps or so around a 3" drum or roughly 6' where you can actually achieve a 9k pull. Think about that for a second. You have to find an anchor point that is exactly the right distance away so when all the slack is out of your cable and everything is tensioned so you can use your winch at it's rated capacity, it will only do so for about 6'. When the line jumps up to the next layer, the capacity drops roughly 20% because the effective diameter of the drum has increased and the leverage is now against the winch motor.

Didn't matter, point is current draw remains the same. Think about it for a second.

4/0 isn't the problem. The problem is again, knowledge does not equal understanding.

Correct 4/0 is not a problem and it appears you have neither.

It does almost double pulling ability for a given output but as you pointed out, how close the winch motor is to stall determines the rest

Your getting it Now!

Bottom line is if you are trying to use a 12v winch in situations that you need 4/0 cable, then you're using the wrong tool for the job.

No, you are simply using the right wiring for the job. Unless YOU wired it.

Again your arguments are flawed, your calling me out for a overkill, then suggest custom hydraulics.

So, the whole point is, again......
There is NOTHING wrong 4/0 and
I did not ever say 2ga would not work.

You called me out for NO reason with your covert hostility and I apologize for making you feel threatened on your site that obviously feeds your self image and ego. Get a life sir, its only a forum.

I just don't suffer fools lightly.

Then go find one and put him in his place, you will have your hands full proving me a fool.

Read through this thread, people with reading comprehension can see it for what it is. You have no point other than 4/0 is to good so do what you and Warn say and make it almost adequate.

Now, unless you can state why you should NOT use 4/0, go nurse you ego and let it go. I have enjoyed this but it's getting old, you have no point. Based on your mod deleted post you ARE getting mad and you don't need that I'm sure. Use that energy to design more adequate parts and accessories and spew your knowledge. Maybe you can call me out in another thread sometime, I look forward to it.

:beer-toast1:
 
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Can't let it go huh? I'm good with that. Where have you disproved anything I have posted?

Because I haven't seen 4 rigs pulled up hill with brakes locked up? You should post a poll and see if I'm the only one. Besides as I said that was a flawed comparison with a front winch and snatch block, we are discussing a rear winch and 15 ft run of wire.

Or is it because you think as cable spools and winch capacity drops the current drops? As you said below.


Wrong, just wrong, so who doesnt understand? A motor can only pull so hard so if it loses capacity due to loss of mechanical advantage because of spooling it doesnt lower the current draw of a max pull, the motor is pulling just as hard and as much current on the last wrap as it is the first, contemplate that, sir.

That line of argument sent you of on this tangent of dribble to baffle with 2GA.



Didn't matter, point is current draw remains the same. Think about it for a second.



Correct 4/0 is not a problem and it appears you have neither.



Your getting it Now!



No, you are simply using the right wiring for the job. Unless YOU wired it.

Again your arguments are flawed, your calling me out for a overkill, then suggest custom hydraulics.

So, the whole point is, again......
There is NOTHING wrong 4/0 and
I did not ever say 2ga would not work.

You called me out for NO reason with your covert hostility and I apologize for making you feel threatened on your site that obviously feeds your self image and ego. Get a life sir, its only a forum.



Then go find one and put him in his place, you will have your hands full proving me a fool.

Read through this thread, people with reading comprehension can see it for what it is. You have no point other than 4/0 is to good so do what you and Warn say and make it almost adequate.

Now, unless you can state why you should NOT use 4/0, go nurse you ego and let it go. I have enjoyed this but it's getting old, you have no point. Based on your mod deleted post you ARE getting mad and you don't need that I'm sure. Use that energy to design more adequate parts and accessories and spew your knowledge. Maybe you can call me out in another thread sometime, I look forward to it.

:beer-toast1:
[Drops Mic]
 
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