What is this on the positive terminal of my battery?

GoldenEagle said:
I never had any safety stuff on my CJ as it pertained to my winch power, and once my dual terminal yellow top came loose from the battery hold down clamp and fried on the winch leads. I realize nothing would have saved me in that scenario (beyond a better method of securing the battery), this thread has me thinking about the more likely chance of a front end collision with my TJ being my daily. Fuses get bulky and expensive for the rating a winch will require, and I've never seen parasitic draw to worry about cutting power to the winch alone. But how about that WARN power interpretation kit? Wouldn't this be a more sensible approach should something go awry? Just kill everything off the battery until you get it sorted out.

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I think that's basically what @Zorba is doing in addition to the fuse. I think this is where I'd do a manual disconnect that I just leave disconnected by default until I hit the trail, or go out in a snow/ice storm.
 
freedom_in_4low said:
You do make a convincing argument on this. At least the fuse part. I'd probably just go with a disconnect instead of a solenoid and just close it as part of my routine of airing down and disconnecting before hitting the trail. I had a close call last year working on my Jeep and just shorted a small 20ish AWG wire feeding a switch to a light bar...i was seconds away from a fire in my garage on a jeep that couldn't roll.

If you know, do you mind saving us the pain of getting through the automated phone system to talk to a human? I'm genuinely curious because this is something that bothers me every time I mess with winch wiring.
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My admittedly un-informed opinion has to do with reliability. A winch is a piece of "emergency gear" and when you need it, its gotta work. That's why I made it very easy to bypass both the solenoid and the fuse on the spot if need be - the best of both worlds. Win-win.

Same kind of thing about the grounding for that matter. Everybody tells you to run a negative return wire from the winch all the way back to the battery. There's NO way that can be a lower impedance than grounding to the frame (with appropriate connections at the battery - very important and stock ain't it). But the likelihood of a weather exposed high current ground connection failing is fairly high - so I did both! Ran a #4 to the battery, AND grounded the winch to the frame, AND installed a bypass ground wire from the frame to the engine block AND beefed up the ground wires from the block AND the tub to the battery. That gives me both the reliability of the direct wire AND the low impedance of the frame ground. If the ground connections fail, the return wire will carry the load just fine. If the return wire fails (unlikely), the ground will actually carry the load better than the wire could anyway. If they both work, the wire will only serve to lower the return impedance an imperceptible amount. Win-win.
 
freedom_in_4low said:
I think that's basically what @Zorba is doing in addition to the fuse. I think this is where I'd do a manual disconnect that I just leave disconnected by default until I hit the trail, or go out in a snow/ice storm.
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A manual disconnect should be fine as long as its close to the battery and rated for winch current. My M8000 *can* draw up to 450 amps - check yours before speccing parts. I went with the solenoid because I planned an in-cab control panel (subsequently installed), the "arm" toggle turns on the solenoid. If things go to shit, I can bypass the solenoid and/or the fuse (fuse is right ON the battery) and operate with the pigtail remote plugged into the winch directly. If you've ever seen a large gauge wire connected to a low impedance power source shorting out and hopping about, it tends to give you religion! That battery is a very low impedance source, at least for a short time...
 
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freedom_in_4low said:
If you know, do you mind saving us the pain of getting through the automated phone system to talk to a human? I'm genuinely curious because this is something that bothers me every time I mess with winch wiring.
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If I had to guess, it's purely a matter of drawn power from the winch and removing any additional points of failure. But, I don't know shit so... I took the liberty of asking Warn. I'll reply should I get some reasonable useful response.
 
Jerry Bransford said:
A winch draws zero power when not in use. Not even .00001 ma.
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Correct, not disputing that or saying anything different. It was more of a guess as to why they (mainstream manufacturers) say wire directly to the battery, for when it IS in use, reducing points of failure. Like I said earlier, I never had any parasitic draw on my old Jeep with my warn wired direct to the battery.
 
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Zorba said:
That's nice. Since when have I ever paid any attention whatsoever to "mainstream"? You do it your way, I'll do it mine. That way we're both happy! Warn et al aren't going to be in my Jeep in the unlikely - but still greater than zero - event there is an "incident". The most likely scenario in my mind is a frontal collision, I'd just as soon have that #2 wire dead up there, all things being equal.
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I had an XJ friend years ago that had a winch connected directly to the battery without a resettable circuit breaker. One afternoon he came home from work and found his entire garage full of electrical smoke and the front fiberglass header and battery were melted; the remainder of the Cherokee front was mostly untouched.
I would err on the side of safety and install the circuit breaker....
 
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Hey Folks, appreciate all the responses and commentary - nice to see such a responsive community! Many thanks to all, at least I know what it is now and the options to address! Now I just have to figure out what is going on with my voltage meter going to zero!
 
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i have a red cable like that in my emergency kit. if i ever get stranded or need to alert rescuers i can attach one end to the + terminal and the other to the - terminal and start a signal fire of coarse then i have to find another jeep but hey thats half the fun !
 
Jerry Bransford said:
Contact mainstream winch manufacturers like Warn, Superwinch, Ramsey, etc. and ask why all their instructions say to connect it directly to the battery.
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+1

Even if you ignore who you trust more (Warn vs HF, really?), what do you expect the fuse/breaker to do? If it'll support the winch it'll support welding/fire.

A fuse MIGHT save the battery, and high-amp fuses are common and cheap from the car audio world. $20 is cheap insurance.
 
Zorba said:
My admittedly un-informed opinion has to do with reliability. A winch is a piece of "emergency gear" and when you need it, its gotta work. That's why I made it very easy to bypass both the solenoid and the fuse on the spot if need be - the best of both worlds. Win-win.

Same kind of thing about the grounding for that matter. Everybody tells you to run a negative return wire from the winch all the way back to the battery. There's NO way that can be a lower impedance than grounding to the frame (with appropriate connections at the battery - very important and stock ain't it). But the likelihood of a weather exposed high current ground connection failing is fairly high - so I did both! Ran a #4 to the battery, AND grounded the winch to the frame, AND installed a bypass ground wire from the frame to the engine block AND beefed up the ground wires from the block AND the tub to the battery. That gives me both the reliability of the direct wire AND the low impedance of the frame ground. If the ground connections fail, the return wire will carry the load just fine. If the return wire fails (unlikely), the ground will actually carry the load better than the wire could anyway. If they both work, the wire will only serve to lower the return impedance an imperceptible amount. Win-win.
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I believe the reason for having the winch ground return connected directly to the battery is to minimize the possibility of having some small amount of that 500A current somehow from getting passed through an unrelated small gauge ground connection and damaging (or vaporizing) it.
 
TurboTJ said:
I believe the reason for having the winch ground return connected directly to the battery is to minimize the possibility of having some small amount of that 500A current somehow from getting passed through an unrelated small gauge ground connection and damaging (or vaporizing) it.
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Hence my installation of the ground jumper across a motor mount - because that's EXACTLY what would happen otherwise. But I did both, can't hurt, might help!
 
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Zorba said:
Everybody tells you to run a negative return wire from the winch all the way back to the battery. There's NO way that can be a lower impedance than grounding to the frame (with appropriate connections at the battery - very important and stock ain't it).
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Whoops I just saw that! Yowsa. Despite all the extra grounds you added it's still best to connect the winch's negative lead directly to the battery.
Zorba said:
Hence my installation of the ground jumper across a motor mount - because that's EXACTLY what would happen otherwise. But I did both, can't hurt, might help!
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If you were to ask me, and I assuredly know you are not, I believe you're taking extra chances with your winch's ground connection. Despite your extra jumper cables, I would still make sure to attach the winch's ground cable DIRECTLY to the battery. Not to mention there's no such thing as impedance in a DC circuit, you're simply getting the lowest resistance possible when connecting directly to the battery.
 
Jerry Bransford said:
Whoops I just saw that! Yowsa. Despite all the extra grounds you added it's still best to connect the winch's negative lead directly to the battery.

If you were to ask me, and I assuredly know you are not, I believe you're taking extra chances with your winch connections. Despite your extra jumper cables, I would still make sure to attach the winch's ground cable DIRECTLY to the battery. Not to mention there's no such thing as impedance in a DC circuit, you're simply getting the lowest resistance possible when connecting directly to the battery.
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I did *both* - grounded on both ends AND ran the wire too - I thought I was quite clear stating that! :D And why.

"Impedance" includes DC resistance - or did back when I went to electronics school. There's resistance, reactance, and impedance. Impedance is the overall measurement/calculation that includes the first two! Not that there's appreciable reactance in this case outside the winch motor.
 
Zorba said:
"Impedance" includes DC resistance - or did back when I went to electronics school.
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Yes impedance does include simple resistance but when there's no Xc or Xl the Z (impedance) is nothing more than the DC resistance. Impedance is not a term that would be used in that 12 volt DC circuit. No big deal but... :)
 
srimes said:
+1

Even if you ignore who you trust more (Warn vs HF, really?), what do you expect the fuse/breaker to do? If it'll support the winch it'll support welding/fire.

A fuse MIGHT save the battery, and high-amp fuses are common and cheap from the car audio world. $20 is cheap insurance.
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I don't really agree with that. Properly sized fuse and wire should support the winch while protecting the wire. Otherwise the wire would burn it's insulation during winch use.
 
I have mine wired directly to the battery, but after thinking through the front end collision scenario and imagining that 4 gage or whatever positive lead being severed and shorting against whatever it might find kinda gives me the heebie-jeebies. I think I'll look for a fuse or circuit breaker, minimum.
 
Jerry Bransford said:
Contact mainstream winch manufacturers like Warn, Superwinch, Ramsey, etc. and ask why all their instructions say to connect it directly to the battery.
Click to expand...
freedom_in_4low said:
If you know, do you mind saving us the pain of getting through the automated phone system to talk to a human? I'm genuinely curious because this is something that bothers me every time I mess with winch wiring.
Click to expand...
I have the response.

"Warn recommends wiring direct to the battery due to the high amp draw required to run them. Most of the winches will pull over 400 amps when under load and we have not found any fuse or circuit breaker that will reliably handle that."
 
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GoldenEagle said:
I never had any safety stuff on my CJ as it pertained to my winch power, and once my dual terminal yellow top came loose from the battery hold down clamp and fried on the winch leads. I realize nothing would have saved me in that scenario (beyond a better method of securing the battery), this thread has me thinking about the more likely chance of a front end collision with my TJ being my daily. Fuses get bulky and expensive for the rating a winch will require, and I've never seen parasitic draw to worry about cutting power to the winch alone. But how about that WARN power interpretation kit? Wouldn't this be a more sensible approach should something go awry? Just kill everything off the battery until you get it sorted out.

View attachment 292980
Click to expand...
This warn kit is what I used-worked out good
 
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