Wildman's TJ is getting a face lift

[Wildman]

OK I started off by pulling the pinion back out and took another .020 out of the stack of shims.
Remember the pictures I'd posted a few days ago?
So now I'm back down to a more normal shim stack of .072
But I think it is still a little bit deep.

But looks a lot better than yesterday.

 

[Wildman]

I've got to run inside for a few and then I'll get back at this.
I'll pull another. 010 out of the shim stack and see what happens.

 

[Blackjack]

In your case you want to be as deep as you can without the dreaded hard line at the bottom of the pattern. Even with the preload bolt you added you are still going to have the ring walk away from the pinion so being on the deep side will help.

 

[Wildman]

In your case you want to be as deep as you can without the dreaded hard line at the bottom of the pattern. Even with the preload bolt you added you are still going to have the ring walk away from the pinion so being on the deep side will help.

Yes, you are 100% spot on. I just want to move it out to make sure I'm not too deep. I do like the pattern I'm seeing though. And the backlash is tight also which is what Carl suggested. I haven't checked it yet but I'd guess it's around .003 right now.
So we'll see what taking .010 out does and if it moves it too much I'll add some back.

 

[gasiorv]

I need an education on the load bolt. I know what it is for and what it does (keeps the ring gear in place when torque is applied by the pinion). However, what I don't understand is about the wear surface. Is there a bearing or a wear pad on the end of the bolt? What keeps the bolt from wearing down and/or the ring gear/carrier wearing away? I did an internet search and I couldn't find a picture of one installed.

Another question on carrier spreader and shims. Assuming you are installing a new carrier and/or bearings and don't know what the original carrier shim thickness is yet. I have never used a carrier spreader but it seems to be a good idea. I always set everything up with the carrier being shimmed so that you have to "tap" it in, then after everything is set, backlash and running a good pattern, add 0.003" shim to each side of the carrier and bang it in. It is a real pain, especially if you have the shims between the race and housing because you have to drive them in with the carrier and they tend to bend and wrinkle. So with the spreader, do you set it up the same way and then when you add the 0.003 to each side you use the spreader to be able to install the carrier/shims without bending the shims? Or is there another method to determine your shim requirements with the spreader?

 

[Wildman]

I need an education on the load bolt. I know what it is for and what it does (keeps the ring gear in place when torque is applied by the pinion). However, what I don't understand is about the wear surface. Is there a bearing or a wear pad on the end of the bolt? What keeps the bolt from wearing down and/or the ring gear/carrier wearing away? I did an internet search and I couldn't find a picture of one installed.

I'll take some pictures for you of the back of the ring gear and the load bolt. No there isn't a bearing or anything it's just a bolt that sit next to the ring gear. From what Carl wrote I think on Pirate the bolt is a hardened material but I'd have to find it to tell you exactly what it is. So you tighten the load bolt until it's touching the back of the ring gear and then back it off .003" I think it is. It's in the install directions.

Another question on carrier spreader and shims. Assuming you are installing a new carrier and/or bearings and don't know what the original carrier shim thickness is yet. I have never used a carrier spreader but it seems to be a good idea. I always set everything up with the carrier being shimmed so that you have to "tap" it in, then after everything is set, backlash and running a good pattern, add 0.003" shim to each side of the carrier and bang it in. It is a real pain, especially if you have the shims between the race and housing because you have to drive them in with the carrier and they tend to bend and wrinkle. So with the spreader, do you set it up the same way and then when you add the 0.003 to each side you use the spreader to be able to install the carrier/shims without bending the shims? Or is there another method to determine your shim requirements with the spreader?

So yes as you already know when trying to install shims that are between the bearings and housing it's a PITA to install them. And to get that carrier preload it's even harder as you said. So yes this is when a case spreader can really help. You put a dial indicator in the side of the spreader and as you turn the screw you watch and don't spread more than .015". But when trying to add .006" of shim for preload it almost drops in.

If you are starting with a empty housing one way is to press on your bearings and set the carrier in the housing. Then push it as far as you can to one side with a pry bar. Use feeler gauges and measure the gap. Then to start divide that amount between the two sides. It's not a perfect process but it's a start.

The spreader just allows you to get a better preload and not have to beat the crap out of the carrier as you install it. And when removing the carrier let me tell you it makes life 100% easier. Right now I'm snug and have to tap the carrier in but as you said once I get the pattern and backlash I'm shooting for I'll add .003-4" to each side for preload. So I'll wait until I modify my spreader to do the final setup.

Does that help to answer your questions?

 

[Wildman]

Here's the back of the ring gear. Carl machined it for the load bolt to ride on the flat area.

And then the load bolt turned out to where it's just touching the ring gear.

 

[gasiorv]

I'll take some pictures for you of the back of the ring gear and the load bolt. No there isn't a bearing or anything it's just a bolt that sit next to the ring gear. From what Carl wrote I think on Pirate the bolt is a hardened material but I'd have to find it to tell you exactly what it is. So you tighten the load bolt until it's touching the back of the ring gear and then back it off .003" I think it is. It's in the install directions.



So yes as you already know when trying to install shims that are between the bearings and housing it's a PITA to install them. And to get that carrier preload it's even harder as you said. So yes this is when a case spreader can really help. You put a dial indicator in the side of the spreader and as you turn the screw you watch and don't spread more than .015". But when trying to add .006" of shim for preload it almost drops in.

If you are starting with a empty housing one way is to press on your bearings and set the carrier in the housing. Then push it as far as you can to one side with a pry bar. Use feeler gauges and measure the gap. Then to start divide that amount between the two sides. It's not a perfect process but it's a start.

The spreader just allows you to get a better preload and not have to beat the crap out of the carrier as you install it. And when removing the carrier let me tell you it makes life 100% easier. Right now I'm snug and have to tap the carrier in but as you said once I get the pattern and backlash I'm shooting for I'll add .003-4" to each side for preload. So I'll wait until I modify my spreader to do the final setup.

Does that help to answer your questions?

Yes, sir. Thanks!

I guess since your not applying high amounts of torque to the pinion on a constant basis, the wear surface will only make contact a minimal amount of time. I am assuming that in reverse is when the ring gear moves the most and would have the high torque applied even less. Just not sure if I like that metal on metal wear.

 

[Apparition]

Per Currie's site for the load bolts in my axles

Ring gear load bolt (top left) eliminates gear deflection, to dramatically increase torque handling capacity. The load bolt typically sits .002 inch from the ring gear and only touches when extremely high torque loads are applied

 

[Wildman]

Yes, sir. Thanks!

I guess since your not applying high amounts of torque to the pinion on a constant basis, the wear surface will only make contact a minimal amount of time. I am assuming that in reverse is when the ring gear moves the most and would have the high torque applied even less. Just not sure if I like that metal on metal wear.

Because it's a high pinion axle in the rear of my Jeep it's driving on the coast side of the ring gear. This causes the ring gear to try and push away (deflection) from the pinion gear. And as you said it's only under higher torque situations when the ring gear might contact the load bolt.

 

[Wildman]

With the damn ARB copper line in the way it's really hard to get a good picture but here's. 010 more removed from the pinion depth.

OK I think these are better pictures.

I think I'm going to split the difference between this pattern and the last one. I'll add .005 back to the depth and see how it looks.

Getting damn close.

 

[Wildman]

27 inch pds pinion preload.

Pinion won't be touched again I hope.
Seal installed and lock nut Loctite on to 225lbs pd ft.

 

[Wildman]

OK now remember that my drive side is the coast side of the gear.

And my coast side is the drive side.

Backlash is .006" right now but I'll tighten that up just a bit more when I do the final install.

 

[Wildman]

Just not sure if I like that metal on metal wear.

After breaking 3 R&P gear sets I can live with a few metal shavings in my housing if it'll keep me from breaking anymore R&P sets.

 

[Wildman]

Before I put the carrier back in I ran a tap through the load bolt carrier again just to make sure it was all good. You have to be able to turn it by hand so you can feel it when it's touching the ring gear and then back it off the .003 of clearance.

So I ran the tap thru again both directions just to make sure.

Now I just need the parts to modify my spreader which will be here Wednesday. I've got appointments tomorrow and Wednesday both so I won't be working on the axle until Thursday. I'll be picking up my front bumper tomorrow in Yakima and then hopefully the exhaust on Wednesday.

 

[Blackjack]

I am not sure i would run the backlash much lower myself unless you plan on a very careful break in process. It is one thing when you have two cut gears like NashvilleTJ does but five cut may not like it as much.

 

[Wildman]

I am not sure i would run the backlash much lower myself unless you plan on a very careful break in process. It is one thing when you have two cut gears like NashvilleTJ does but five cut may not like it as much.

Yes I'm a little worried about it too. He told me to drive like into Ellensburg which is 15 minutes away and then go eat. Then drive home and let it sit. Do the same thing for 3-4 days to break them in. But I'm more comfortable with the .006" backlash. I'll still take my time breaking them in.

Do you think the pattern is still too deep or? I like it but have a buddy who is a mechanic saying it's too deep.

 

[Blackjack]

You still have a bit of a hard line on the bottom of the pattern which is probably from being both a touch deep and the tight backlash.

 

[lBasket]

Really cool seeing the pics of you adjusting the pattern and the thought process. With enough of that maybe I'll be able to set my own gears in 15-20 years

What causes the hard line at the bottom, is that the pinion "bottoming out" between the teeth?

 

[Wildman]

Really cool seeing the pics of you adjusting the pattern and the thought process. With enough of that maybe I'll be able to set my own gears in 15-20 years

What causes the hard line at the bottom, is that the pinion "bottoming out" between the teeth?

As Black said it might still be a bit deep. I'm going to go back and adjust it again. The other thing is that I need to find a better way to load the gear to get a better pattern.

This video while VERY monotone does a good job explaining the contact pattern.



Lucky for me the pinion seal isn't installed into the housing instead it's installed in this piece that screws into the housing. So I won't ruin the seal taking it back out.

I got a head of myself and should have looked at that pattern better.

And Carl sent this information over. I'm trying to get the competition contact pattern.

As I said earlier it's been over 12 years since I've done gears. And while you don't lose the knowledge if you aren't doing it often your get rusty. So on Thursday I'll get back at it and make some adjustments.