Form follows function. The more one cares to understand function, the more closely the form follows suit. Different people need different function which leads to different forms.
Dual rate springs: JKS JSPEC dual rate versus Metalcloak dual rate
- Thread starter 01TJ-Blues
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Form follows function. The more one cares to understand function, the more closely the form follows suit. Different people need different function which leads to different forms.
Stop talking about springs and ride quality inferred, implied, insinuated, or any other context that puts springs in the equation as anything to do with ride quality, real, theoretical, or otherwise except for THEY DO NOT MATTER.
If that's what you get out of it, you are a very confused individual. I do not care how you build your rig or for what reasons, never have. What happens is just like this shitfest of a thread and a predictable one at that is folks try to convince the world that something matters when it doesn't, something is the same that isn't and never will be, expensive parts are name only, etc. That will fucking start it every single time.
MrBlaine - "Stop talking about springs and ride quality inferred, implied, insinuated, or any other context that puts springs in the equation as anything to do with ride quality, real, theoretical, or otherwise except for THEY DO NOT MATTER."
Assuming @Jerry Bransford and @mrblaine are correct (which is likely) here is my question for the sake of argument.
Let's say the unloaded length of the front coil springs is 20" on the TJ and the coils on the front of my 1 ton Ram diesel pickup are also 20" tall. By the above rationale, since springs only set ride height and have no affect on ride quality, I should be able to swap the truck springs into the TJ and as long as I don't change the shocks on the Jeep, I'll still have the same ride quality?
PS: I don't know why I didn't join this forum earlier...
Your ram diesel springs have a much higher spring rate to support the weight of the diesel engine so your Jeep would sit much higher with them than with the existing springs. Two same-length springs with different spring rates will give two different ride heights.Assuming @Jerry Bransford and @mrblaine are correct (which is likely) here is my question for the sake of argument.
Let's say the unloaded length of the front coil springs is 20" on the TJ and the coils on the front of my 1 ton Ram diesel pickup are also 20" tall. By the above rationale, since springs only set ride height and have no affect on ride quality, I should be able to swap the truck springs into the TJ and as long as I don't change the shocks on the Jeep, I'll still have the same ride quality?
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Let's say the unloaded length of the front coil springs is 20" on the TJ and the coils on the front of my 1 ton Ram diesel pickup are also 20" tall. By the above rationale, since springs only set ride height and have no affect on ride quality, I should be able to swap the truck springs into the TJ and as long as I don't change the shocks on the Jeep, I'll still have the same ride quality?
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None of that makes any sense.
Why stop at a truck spring and not use train springs for your example? This all gets into theoretical. I think its obvious a spring that heavy would affect ride quality. It would also fall out every time you flexed because it would have to be that short to give you the desired ride height. In the end, I think the argument is that nobody makes a TJ spring that is so stiff or so soft that you notice the difference. Because at the extremes of theoretical examples, I don't know how it wouldn't make a difference. So I think the real arguement is really a matter of degrees. Where is that point of extreme theoretical vs the reality of whats available.... since springs only set ride height and have no affect on ride quality, I should be able to swap the truck springs into the TJ and as long as I don't change the shocks on the Jeep, I'll still have the same ride quality?
PS: I don't know why I didn't join this forum earlier...
And that right there is why these discussions always turn to shit. Do you know of a spring that fits into the TJ mounts that gives you the correct ride height with the spring rate that is under the front of your RAM?MrBlaine - "Stop talking about springs and ride quality inferred, implied, insinuated, or any other context that puts springs in the equation as anything to do with ride quality, real, theoretical, or otherwise except for THEY DO NOT MATTER."
Assuming @Jerry Bransford and @mrblaine are correct (which is likely) here is my question for the sake of argument.
Let's say the unloaded length of the front coil springs is 20" on the TJ and the coils on the front of my 1 ton Ram diesel pickup are also 20" tall. By the above rationale, since springs only set ride height and have no affect on ride quality, I should be able to swap the truck springs into the TJ and as long as I don't change the shocks on the Jeep, I'll still have the same ride quality?
PS: I don't know why I didn't join this forum earlier...
No you don't and you never will because it doesn't exist and it doesn't exist because it can NOT fit within the parameters of tolerable free length, calculated ride height to give the approximate lift, for the TJ's requirements. Once you build a spring that works in the TJ for what we need it to do, then all of the rates are very close to each other, that's why they don't matter.
Technically a solid steel bar 1.5" in diameter welded between the upper and lower spring perches has a spring rate. No need to get into train springs, they cost too much, if we're gonna go retard, let's go full retard with an tremendously high rate.
It is as simple as that and it really, truly amazes me that people will argue the theory of spring rates and design till hell freezes over .. without ever pausing to think about the reality.
Alright. Legit question here. Does the spring not changing ride quality apply to leaf sprung vehicle as well? My excursion is leafs at all 4 corners. I've changed leafs and shocks no idea what really made the ride difference.
I have three front springs for my LJ. Stock, CC780 and CC782. With the same shocks the stock springs ride okay. With the CC780 the dual rate springs ride on the stiff section and the ride is rough. The CC782 springs run in the light rate section and the ride is smooth. The springs obviously change the ride. I am not reaching the limits of my suspension at all. The ride height does change from about 32.5" at the fender to about 33.5". It's still very roughly mid-travel on the shock.
What bothers me about these threads is @Fargo and I have these real experiences that show in some arguably tiny fringe cases that springs do change the ride and people say it can't. It just doesn't seem like reality to me. I completely understand the desire to push people to tune with shocks but that doesn't need to include dismissing the springs in such extreme terms.
What bothers me about these threads is @Fargo and I have these real experiences that show in some arguably tiny fringe cases that springs do change the ride and people say it can't. It just doesn't seem like reality to me. I completely understand the desire to push people to tune with shocks but that doesn't need to include dismissing the springs in such extreme terms.
Go drive the jeep without shocks with each of those 3 sets of springs and report back if you can tell ANY difference whatsoever. Really, try it and you will actually understand what is being said here over and over. Unless your experiment with the springs was done with the SAME ride height, you have not done a controlled experiment and any difference you have felt is most likely all from from the shocks. The shock tune and the amount of shock travel play a very significantly larger role in determining ride quality than spring rates on commercially available TJ springs.
@psrivats
That makes no sense.
The testimony that @pagrey gives is as close to a controlled environment that any of us will get, outside of a lab with instruments capable of precise measurements.
To us “normal” guys, seat of the pants results mean more than any lab based numbers or formulas.
I will end by saying I am stupid and know nothing about suspension.
That makes no sense.
The testimony that @pagrey gives is as close to a controlled environment that any of us will get, outside of a lab with instruments capable of precise measurements.
To us “normal” guys, seat of the pants results mean more than any lab based numbers or formulas.
I will end by saying I am stupid and know nothing about suspension.
We all either learn, or decide to remain ignorant. If you looked any of our older threads, you'll see one of two things. Either we learned and evolved, or we didn't. One is obviously better than the other!
Go cut dump truck springs to set your ride height and report back. He's citing non-tj springs on a tj. The reality is that springs can have some affect, but it's meaningless on any spring available for a TJ as the differences are close to zero.
The actual differences in springs commonly available on a TJ are the free lengths and the stack heights. One guy we wheel with sometimes has his springs damn near fall out because the free length isn't where it ought to be for the travel available.
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