Which battery to go with?

[Jerry Bransford]

More speculation with zero empirical evidence to back up the claim of their drop in QC.

You're now sounding like one of Optima's supporters usually called Optima Jim they started using all over the Internet after they started having problems once they moved the manufacturing line. Seriously

There are just way too many problems of prematurely failed Optima batteries coming from all forums so it's not bullshit and it's not a problem of "zero empirical evidence" which is your favorite response to those of us, several of which are in this thread, who have reported first-hand problems with premature Optima failures. You are essentially saying we're lying about such problems which IS bullshit.

AGAIN, I PERSONALLY had THREE premature Optima battery failures, two Yellow Tops and one Blue Top which are the same exact battery with different second post configurations. And that's not bullshit. It's your repeated posts denigrating and denying the validity of our first-hand reports that should be called into question.

And what are forums for if not for reports of first-hand experiences? Based on your "zero empirical evidence" reply to each one of these related first-hand reports you should deny all first-hand reports including your own, right? And it's no Bullshit that Costco dropped selling Optima batteries due to excessive failures which came straight from a large Optima battery distributor's rep who was a provider of non-Optima backup batteries to my company. He was a supplier to me, not a friend.

You keep defending Optima against all our first-hand reports of premature failures saying they lack valid evidence. What bullshit. I'm seriously thinking you're now must somehow connected with Optima.

This is my last Optima battery, notice the jumpers of I added to share the load of my winch between its aux and main top posts. They were the same jumpers I used on my previous Yellow Tops due to its side posts not being up to the pull of a fully loaded winch. I always do what I can to take care of my batteries to insure against failures caused by me.

 

[mrblaine]

Fair enough, though I tend to point back to the "Fram Filter Phenomenon" - where they weren't an issue until people thought they were an issue. Also worth noting that the OP's battery was MFG'd smack in the middle of the alleged "drop in quality". I guess my point is that there is anecdote everywhere. It's one thing for someone to say "I won't buy Optima" - it's another to say that "others shouldn't Optima either". Maybe I'm just reading this wrong...

Edited to add the prevalence of survivorship/confirmation biases on forums is astronomical, especially on car/technical pages, and especially so with the rise of social media (see Patagonia Milestars for example). As a statistician, I would love to see the rise/drop of competition posts (good or bad) and do correlation analysis, but I digress, that info is likely buried under mountains of garage no sane person would want to go through.



A bit of a red herring question, but no, of course not. We know for a fact that the specs, design, tolerances, raw materials, and production facilities for Craftsman are not the same as they were in the 1970's.

Are you saying that Optima - the premier lineup for JCPS - has empirically changed things that would affect quality, or are you just speculating? As someone who worked for JC and for a supplier of JC, I have no evidence to back up that claim either way. Do you? If not, I will point back again to the Fram Filter Phenomenon.

I don't fall for the Fram bullshit. I'm more than capable of enough critical thought to know if Fram deserved all of the spurious claims leveled against them, the highways would be littered wall to wall with dead cars, they aren't.

My issues with Optima are simple, fact based, and at times philosophical.

I've worked on lots of rigs. I can tell you beyond any doubt whatsoever if a rig has an Optima in it, 75% of the time it will have a battery issue. The other 25% have not been in the rig very long.

Optima Jim spent hours and hours in a giant battery thread on Pirate explaining that no one should be using a Red Top if they run a winch. That battery can't take it according to him. My philosophical issue with that is I've wheeled with 100's of rigs with the stock flooded cell SLI battery in them that run winches and we never a single time ruined one of them via winch use. In other words, a Red Top is not as good as the moderate quality factory flooded cell in a TJ.

On another philosophical note, I am offended by the full lack of efficiency of using coils of lead to build cells instead of the conventional stacked plates. There is no good way to get the same weight and content of lead in the same footprint which puts that style at a severe disadvantage when you have a capacity critical application.

Per usual, everyone is welcome to use whatever they like. Myself, if you dropped a pallet of new Optima batteries off in my driveway for free, I'd ask you to move them out closer to the street so the scrap guy can pick them up easier.

 

[Cornbread]

I have a pretty solid history of getting 6-7 years out of interstate battery in all vehicles. Seems like they normally cost me about $120. I will say my dad and I both had to replace our original Deka batteries from our 05 and 06 silverados in 2018. Just outside of the 3 year warranty both of the interstate batteries failed in '21. We were not pleased when store owner wouldn't stand behind them and also admitted to a "bad run" from that time period. Claimed the new ones are supposed to be better. If they don't make 6 years I'll be looking elsewhere.

I have always seemed to find the original battery to last much longer than any replacement and cannot understand the theory of why that is.

 

[CharlesHS]

More speculation with zero empirical evidence to back up the claim of their drop in QC.

A lot of empirical evidence can be found if you look for it....
There were many many XJ and TJ owners who were return customers because they had great results with the earlier produced batteries, but when they purchased the later built batteries; the longevity of the battery was disappointing.
Just look at how many people responded to this Thread concerning their early vs later battery experience.
Part of the problem stemmed from bad air handler filtering which contaminated the battery materials during assembly.
Now a days in my TJ Interstate is my battery of choice since the NorthStar are not available locally in the Group 34 that I use.

 

[ColoJeep]

For what it's worth I've ran a NAPA Legend AGM in my 99 TJ since 2010. Always works fine. ( Built by East Penn / DEKA )
In my wifes 04 TJ we ran an Interstate FLA from 2013 till it's death in 2020, (open circuit no juice).
It was replaced with a NAPA Legend in 2020.
The AGM's seem to work well for our application , plus I like not screwing around with checking water and less corrosion on the terminals.
Saving $ 50.00 on a battery isn't worth the maintenance hassles and longer reliable life to me.
I will add to the shit storm with personally observed prospective of , originally Optima AGM's were unique and high quality and worth the higher cost.
( The first time I saw one , it was used to jump start a class 8 off road race truck with the Optima hand held upside down jumping the weaker battery post to post ! then tossed to the ground like a piece of firewood ) As time went on and others started buying Optimas they would be happy for 2-3 years until the battery would not hold a charge for long or wouldn't start a truck reliably.
Something happened to the original performance/value of the Optima batteries. Who knows what.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

On another philosophical note, I am offended by the full lack of efficiency of using coils of lead to build cells instead of the conventional stacked plates. There is no good way to get the same weight and content of lead in the same footprint which puts that style at a severe disadvantage when you have a capacity critical application.

This illustrates that point and why Optima batteries of the same Group Size weigh something like 25% less than the competition. That's 25% less battery in the same Group Size.

.............AGM............... Optima AGM

Not to mention after my last AGM battery failed and I called Optima to bitch and tell them I couldn't get it to charge. I expected a warranty replacement because it was under their normal 24 month warranty. He then asked if a winch was connected to it and when I confirmed one was, he said that placed it in the commercial category whose warranty was only 12 months so its warranty was declined. He then audibly smirked and asked if I was using their Optima battery charged and I said no that I was using my trusty Craftsman benchtop charger. They replied that wasn't good enough because an Optima can get drained low enough that a conventional battery charger isn't able recharge it. He then said they had just announced their Optima battery charger that worked to recharge Optima batteries that were too dead to work with a conventional battery charger. At somewhere well north of $200 I declined and bought a Diehard Platinum that was made for Sears by Odyssey. It lasted the nearly ten years until that TJ was stolen. Optima's special battery charger is $249 at https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...DL4Pet4tK6LM6vNetWMaAlvVEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Optima claims their batteries don't need a "special charger" but if it's dead enough to not be chargeable with common automotive battery chargers like my Diehard it requires Optima's "special charger". What I do know is I'll never buy a brand of battery that has its own brand of battery charger made specially for it.

 

[mrblaine]

This illustrates that point and why Optima batteries of the same Group Size weigh something like 25% less than the competition. That's 25% less battery in the same Group Size.

........AGM...................Optima's AGM
View attachment 385652

Not to mention after my last AGM battery failed and I called Optima to bitch and tell them I couldn't get it to charge. I expected a warranty replacement because it was under their normal 24 month warranty. He then asked if a winch was connected to it and when I confirmed one was, he said that placed it in the commercial category whose warranty was only 12 months so its warranty was declined. He then audibly smirked and asked if I was using their Optima battery charged and I said no that I was using my trusty Craftsman benchtop charger. They replied that wasn't good enough because an Optima can get drained low enough that a conventional battery charger isn't able recharge it. He then said they had just announced their Optima battery charger that worked to recharge Optima batteries that were too dead to work with a conventional battery charger. At somewhere well north of $200 I declined and bought a Diehard Platinum that was made for Sears by Odyssey. It lasted the nearly ten years until that TJ was stolen. Optima's special battery charger is $249 at https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...DL4Pet4tK6LM6vNetWMaAlvVEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Optima claims their batteries don't need a "special charger" but if it's dead enough to not be chargeable with common automotive battery chargers like my Diehard it requires Optima's "special charger". What I do know is I'll never buy a brand of battery that has its own brand of battery charger made specially for it.

I won't pick on Optima for offering a special charger. I've learned a few tricks over the years and the best one is to take a known good AGM and put it in parallel with the dead one and charge both of them that way. Even my good charger with an AGM setting won't charge most of them if they are below 10.5 volts. That and I had a few Platinum Diehards shit the bed in less than 24 hours. Kat had her XJ washed, the sponge monkey didn't close the rear hatch all the way so it left the rear cargo light on. The next morning it would not start, I tried to jump it with a TJ, not happening. Then I tried the big cables with the dual Diehards in the tow rig, still nothing. Did the parallel trick, nothing. That piece of shit may as well have been empty inside. I was more than a bit miffed that it couldn't be jumped enough to drive it to the local Sears to get a replacement.

 

[tr21triton]

Yes, if you lived in a very cold climate, otherwise no, I'd say it's average, maybe. I tend to get ~7 years out of a standard lead-acid battery, and it's looking like ~10 for AGM.

Optima changed hands sometime around 5 years ago and have had a bad reputation since them. I've had good results from autozone and oreillys.

MY GOD MAN ! be careful, you will send Jerry into cardiac arrest !

 

[Jerry Bransford]

MY GOD MAN ! be careful, you will send Jerry into cardiac arrest !

Not at all. If the prices of an Odyssey. Northstar, Bosch, or similar high quality AGM are too much for someone I often tell them to go buy the AGM with the best warranty they can find at their local auto parts store and it should be fine.

 

[tr21triton]

Not at all. If the prices of an Odyssey. Northstar, Bosch, or similar high quality AGM are too much for someone I often tell them to go buy the AGM with the best warranty they can find at their local auto parts store and it should be fine.

just messing with ya buddy !

 

[BlueC]

Not at all. If the prices of an Odyssey. Northstar, Bosch, or similar high quality AGM are too much for someone I often tell them to go buy the AGM with the best warranty they can find at their local auto parts store and it should be fine.

Just to get away from the optima talk and back to the OPs original topic, I have an Oreillys brand AGM in my Jeep that's approaching 10 years old. I have a few other more recent batteries from them and have had good results. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another battery from Oreillys.

 

[Mr. Bills]

. . . I have an Oreillys brand AGM in my Jeep that's approaching 10 years old. . . . I wouldn't hesitate to buy another battery from Oreillys.

The linked O'Reilly Super Start Platinum AGM Group 34/78 battery is manufactured by Deka/East Penn, is also known as the Deka Intimidator, and is the identical Deka/East Penn battery as the NAPA Legend AGM and the Autozone Duralast Platinum AGM. (The "Diehard" Platinum AGM group 34 battery available from Advance Auto Parts and other sources is currently manufactured by Clarios, formerly Johnson Controls, and is no longer an Odyssey in disguise.)

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...m-battery-group-size-34-78/ssbq/3478plt?pos=1

At $250-ish, this Deka/East Penn battery with whatever label is less expensive than the Odyssey/Northstar price point of $385-ish and addresses the two primary reasons advanced for running AGM batteries in jeeps: (1) no acid leak in a rollover, and (2) better resistance to shock and vibration than flooded lead acid batteries.


From a 2019 post on this forum:

A quick Google search revealed this:

"East Penn makes a lot of conventional, calcium AGM batteries. At Auto Zone, the DuraLast Platinum is a calcium AGM, while the DuraLast Gold is a flooded, maintenance-free battery. At NAPA, the Legend is a calcium AGM. At O’Reilly, the Super Start Platinum is a calcium AGM."

The article from which the text is quoted has a great discussion of the different types of AGM batteries and their application to police vehicle use. It also explains the differences between "thick plate calcium AGM batteries" such as the offerings by East Penn, and "thin plate pure lead AGM's" which include Northstar, Odyssey and Optima. The article concludes:

"Both the calcium AGM and the pure lead AGM crank longer and are more tolerant of deep cycle drains than OE maintenance-free batteries. That said, there is a performance difference among these two types of AGM battery. Since the thinner plates in the pure lead AGM have more surface area contact than the thicker plates in the calcium AGM, they are more efficient during both discharging and recharging. The calcium AGM is 'better' while the pure lead AGM is 'best.'"

See: http://www.hendonpub.com/law_and_order/articles/2015/04/agm_battery_technology

It appears from the article that in the hierarchy of AGM's the Napa Legend is better than a flooded lead acid battery but not in the same category as a pure lead AGM battery such as Northstar, Odyssey and Optima. It also explains the substantial price difference between the East Penn offerings and those of the other AGM manufacturers.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/whats-the-best-agm-battery-to-buy.19077/#post-309592


Note: Those fixated on being right about Optima batteries, whether that fixation be positive or negative, may also be fixated by the language in the article that includes Optimas in the same category as Odyssey and Northstar. If you are one of these people, please read again. The category is lead purity, not quality of finished product.

Unless something changes in the marketplace between now and then, the next battery for my LJ will most likely be the Deka/East Penn AGM. Which vendor will likely be determined by a combination of availability, warranty, ease of warranty claims, and price.

 

[Eddie Greenlee]

Y’all may have covered this already, but how long has odyssey owned NorthStar ?

 

[mrblaine]

The category is lead purity, not quality of finished product.

I'm struggling to find the point being made, clarify it some for me.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Y’all may have covered this already, but how long has odyssey owned NorthStar ?

Just over a year... https://www.odysseybattery.com/blog...As a result of the,the ODYSSEY® battery brand.

 

[explorerlyon]

I have an Odyssey in my LJ. When I took my alternator in for rebuild to a local shop, they said about 75% of alternators crap out due to poor battery. They recommended Dekka batteries. I have Dekka in my boat and they also have been very good. The NAPA batteries are rebranded Dekka and is another good source. NAPA often has 20% off coupons that apply to batteries.

 

[JPHikr]

Here is one thing that will never change for wet lead acid, AGM or Gel batteries.

The chemical reaction that creates the electricity is dependent on the surface area of the plates IE the weight of the Lead.

You can have a battery that weighs 62 pounds a Trojan T-105 rated 225@ 20 amph.
Then compare To a Trojan L-16H-AC which weighs 125 pounds and is rated 435 @ 20 amph.

Double the size Double the storage capacity ( I know it is a slight bit less).
This is due to the fact the case is just a tiny bit less than double the internal volume because of SAE group size standards.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Here is one thing that will never change for wet lead acid, AGM or Gel batteries.

Good information though none of our Jeeps (and very few cars... none in the US I'm aware of) can run on gel cell batteries. They require a special type of charging system and they don't have even close to the amperage capacity of conventional wet or AGM batteries. And contrary to some rumors Optima batteries are not gel cell batteries either.

 

[ColoJeep]

I have always seemed to find the original battery to last much longer than any replacement and cannot understand the theory of why that is.

Think about it of course this makes a lot of sense , everything is new. the engine start easy , no corrosion on anything no crap on top of the battery slowly discharging it. on and on.

 

[JPHikr]

AGM and Gel are about 15% less amp hour storage than a wet lead acid of the same group size.
This is because they need internal room to contain the gas off during charging.

Here is the formula for picking type of battery generally speaking not Jeep specific.

For a Fully charged battery temperature extremes.

Wet Lead acid is good to Zero degrees.
AGM is good to Minus 20 degrees.
Gel is good to Minus 40 degrees.

You can charge a Gel Battery on a charger that has an AGM option.
AGM is a lower amp charging cycle.

If you were to charge an AMG or Gel on the standard Wet battery charging setting.
There is a chance the battery will blow out te case from to much internal pressure.
If you look at a lead acid battery when charging the electrolyte is boiling this is not a problem in a
Wet lead acid battery are vented to atmosphere.
In an AGM or Gel they are sealed and can build up pressure if to charged with too many amps.

NEVER EVER hook up a BOOST Starter Charger that puts out 50 - 100 amps to jump start a vehicles with an AGM or Gel battery.
It will blow the case out causing acid to go every where.

Jump starting tip:
Before hooking up jumper cable to car with dead battery turn on the headlight on the car with dead battery.
This will keep the voltage surge from frying out the computers on the car with dead battery