Cold Case Radiators

[freedom_in_4low]

I suspect someone had dissected the OEM unit? Can it be that hard to reverse engineer?
Airplane parts are expensive on a level that most people can’t comprehend. It’s not because of manufacturing costs, it’s because of certification costs.

If we can build quality parts, and stay under the OEM cost while exceeding standards, there will be happy people.

Not hard to reverse engineer at all, and no dissection necessary. I'm experienced in fluid to air heat exchanger design and manufacturing so I know what to look for. It basically comes down to surface area and for some reason many of the aftermarket manufacturers seem to think it's ok to have 20% fewer tubes. It may come down to their manufacturing capability because these cores are put together in fixtures and brazed in an oven. Maybe the machine they use to fold the fins into that accordion shape has a set width and they can't make it narrower to get the tubes closer together. Getting the same area density of fins and tubes and matching core depth should match performance.

For quality, that might require some dissection. For whatever reason the aftermarket ones don't seem to last as long. Maybe they're not controlling the cool down rate when they mold the plastic tanks and they're warping as a result. Maybe they're just crappy at getting the crimp consistent where the aluminum crimps into the flange of the tank. Maybe they use a cheaper gasket material. I'm less able to comment on that area because my exchangers are all metal.

 

[UglyDuck]

Not hard to reverse engineer at all, and no dissection necessary. I'm experienced in fluid to air heat exchanger design and manufacturing so I know what to look for. It basically comes down to surface area and for some reason many of the aftermarket manufacturers seem to think it's ok to have 20% fewer tubes. It may come down to their manufacturing capability because these cores are put together in fixtures and brazed in an oven. Maybe the machine they use to fold the fins into that accordion shape has a set width and they can't make it narrower to get the tubes closer together. Getting the same area density of fins and tubes and matching core depth should match performance.

For quality, that might require some dissection. For whatever reason the aftermarket ones don't seem to last as long. Maybe they're not controlling the cool down rate when they mold the plastic tanks and they're warping as a result. Maybe they're just crappy at getting the crimp consistent where the aluminum crimps into the flange of the tank. Maybe they use a cheaper gasket material. I'm less able to comment on that area because my exchangers are all metal.

Sounds like you need to be part of my proposed venture to manufacture some radiators.

 

[Dustdevil]

My last radiator replace was a tough choice. Only found 1 OEM 50+ miles away, and it was over 400 bucks. Reluctantly, I opted for a Mishimoto, as I needed the Jeep the following day, was close, and significantly less money. Install was easy enough, even tho I had to space it back a smidge to clear the AC condenser screws. I know Jerry doesn’t like Mishimotos, but it has held up well for maybe 3 years of rattling down washboard roads and truck-ravaged interstates.

 

[Dustdevil]

PS: Champion may be worth looking into. They are in Lake Elsinore, and do in house fabrication.

 

[UglyDuck]

PS: Champion may be worth looking into. They are in Lake Elsinore, and do in house fabrication.

They look interesting. Gonna look deeper into this option.

 

[Blackjack]

Grill flex is a common misconception. There are 3 things that tell that does not happen.
1- pull the grill out of a rig and try to flex it any direction. It does not do any of that. It is probably the single strongest structure on the rig.
2- The factory radiator is held to the mounting flanges on each side with 4 #8 machine screws with captive heads slid into slots cast into the plastic tanks. If there were any flex in any direction that was enough to cause a leak, the screws would rip out of the little slots first.
3- The mounting flanges are fairly large and not very stout. They act as a less than rigid mounting system for any front to back loads that the radiator might see which would then rip the little bolt heads out of the plastic slots.

You can count out vibration too as I am not aware of the four poppers having any more issues than the 4.0 guys and they shake like nobodies business.

 

[Blackjack]

I suspect someone had dissected the OEM unit? Can it be that hard to reverse engineer?
Airplane parts are expensive on a level that most people can’t comprehend. It’s not because of manufacturing costs, it’s because of certification costs.

If we can build quality parts, and stay under the OEM cost while exceeding standards, there will be happy people.

Rather than dissect what needs to be done is find who produced them for Jeep and see if the tooling is still available.

 

[psrivats]

Rather than dissect what needs to be done is find who produced them for Jeep and see if the tooling is still available.

Valeo made the heater cores. Wonder if they did the radiators too..

 

[Blackjack]

Valeo made the heater cores. Wonder if they did the radiators too..

They do actually. Anyone have an OE radiator laying around and can see if there is a big V on it somewhere?

 

[mrblaine]

Valeo made the heater cores. Wonder if they did the radiators too..

They did make the cores, overseas, and the division that deals with that is also overseas. The stateside division of Valeo wants nothing to do with even asking the overseas division if they will do a run of them.

 

[UglyDuck]

They did make the cores, overseas, and the division that deals with that is also overseas. The stateside division of Valeo wants nothing to do with even asking the overseas division if they will do a run of them.

Sounds like you’ve already beat down that door…

 

[mrblaine]

They do actually. Anyone have an OE radiator laying around and can see if there is a big V on it somewhere?

I have a few laying around. I will look but I'm pretty observant and haven't noticed it casually.

 

[Kenneth G Zinis]

Has anyone found what other radiators, most likely Jeep products are direct, or near direct fit for TJs?

 

[mrblaine]

Sounds like you’ve already beat down that door…

More like a mild thump. I was pretty astounded that the onshore division wouldn't even tell me who to try to get in touch with or anything that I just lost interest. Maybe someone else has a better idea?

 

[mrblaine]

They look interesting. Gonna look deeper into this option.

I can pretty much walk to their location. Many of us in the area have very poor luck with their products. I called them up many years ago and asked them why they were doing a small tube width in a multi-row core like the TJ uses instead of going to a larger single row in the same space that would be more efficient.

Their answer?

Everyone wants 2 and 3 row because they think it works better so they are easier to sell.

Why not educate the customer with some tests and results that show the higher efficiency of a nice single row?

We sell as many as we want to now, why do we need to change?

Uh, how about because it put a better product in the hands of your customers?

Yeah, we don't really care.

Got it and notice they never tried to bullshit me by saying the 2 and 3 row with small tubes works better.

 

[UglyDuck]

I can pretty much walk to their location. Many of us in the area have very poor luck with their products. I called them up many years ago and asked them why they were doing a small tube width in a multi-row core like the TJ uses instead of going to a larger single row in the same space that would be more efficient.

Their answer?

Everyone wants 2 and 3 row because they think it works better so they are easier to sell.

Why not educate the customer with some tests and results that show the higher efficiency of a nice single row?

We sell as many as we want to now, why do we need to change?

Uh, how about because it put a better product in the hands of your customers?

Yeah, we don't really care.

Got it and notice they never tried to bullshit me by saying the 2 and 3 row with small tubes works better.

Good to know. I was looking at their site, it appears they have another brand, American Eagle, which in faq describes larger tubes.

While I might not like their business model, I appreciate them being candid with their intent.

 

[Dustdevil]

I can pretty much walk to their location. Many of us in the area have very poor luck with their products. I called them up many years ago and asked them why they were doing a small tube width in a multi-row core like the TJ uses instead of going to a larger single row in the same space that would be more efficient.

Their answer?

Everyone wants 2 and 3 row because they think it works better so they are easier to sell.

Why not educate the customer with some tests and results that show the higher efficiency of a nice single row?

We sell as many as we want to now, why do we need to change?

Uh, how about because it put a better product in the hands of your customers?

Yeah, we don't really care.

Got it and notice they never tried to bullshit me by saying the 2 and 3 row with small tubes works better.

Wonder how they would react to a private label idea, where they build to your single-core design for your retail sale? I may be in left field on this, but seems plausible that a single core design might be a bit less expensive to tool and produce?

 

[mrblaine]

Wonder how they would react to a private label idea, where they build to your single-core design for your retail sale? I may be in left field on this, but seems plausible that a single core design might be a bit less expensive to tool and produce?

I wouldn't be interested in a relationship with a company with those ethics.

 

[Dustdevil]

I wouldn't be interested in a relationship with a company with those ethics.

I must be misunderstanding then. Is it unethical to produce what the market demands?

 

[UglyDuck]

I must be misunderstanding then. Is it unethical to produce what the market demands?

It’s unethical to not care about the customer.