Long Arm Upgrade

[sab]

Good post.

I got to the point that I blocked people because I got tired of the condescending remarks.

Here’s the deal- I don’t care how much somebody knows or how right they are- Every human being needs to be treated with respect- And if you think you have some intelligence to impart to people one sign of intelligence is understanding that that needs to land in an open mind to do any good. I know some people don’t care if they are liked, but oddly....they sure care to be listened to. There is a relationship to all that.

People shut down when they get criticized and abused.

All that said....can I get on here and expect people to conform to my view? No. Useless to try or care probably.

Also, do I practice what I preach go around with loft words landing on open hearts and leaving people glowing for having been blessed by my presence? No. I do have some good moments, and also really channel my inner peckerhead at other times.

We have a good gang, I’m glad to to get to get on here and chime in and to learn and get ideas - so I keep coming back.

Things don’t need to be perfect to give us pleasure or value. They just need to work. This forum really does.

{Drops Mic, Walks Away}

 

[bluescapegoat]

I've never been so annoyed by - and yet agreed with so many parts of - both sides of a conversation as this one.

 

[PNW_LJ]

I'm very late to this "party," but, at the risk of airing too much private thought in a public forum, here are my observations as a relative newbie here (@Foof50, I'm writing this for your benefit, and @mrblaine, I mean no disrespect - your tutelage over the last 18 or 20 months is much appreciated!):

1. Mr. Blaine (and I use the salutation because he deserves it) is an incredibly gifted engineer (yes, he is an engineer), but has a very unique way of teaching, that does turn off newcomers at times. The Socratic method is the most apropos description, so whomever of you first used that - thank you!

You're welcome. =)

1. I know when I first showed up here in the summer of 2021, my first thought was that MrBlaine is one of the most acerbic Internet personalities I've ever encountered (again, no disrespect intended, Mr. Blaine!) However, his lessons are nearly completely spot-on, every time. He ranks up there with the best engineering mentors I've ever had, and I spent a career as an engineer in professional motorsports at high levels.
2. If you give him a wide berth, don't take his posts as personal attacks on your knowledge/abilities, and really pay attention to his underlying (and cryptic most times) message, you will be rewarded with a rapid influx of knowledge via his cryptic ways! His way is his way, and if you can embrace it, it pays off.
3. The "piling on" that occurs here also requires thick skin, but what Internet forum is immune from that?
4. To me, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze, meaning that if you put personal feelings aside, the knowledge you'll gain from dialogue with him is worth it.

That said, Foof50, I hope you can get through this rough patch because I think it will be very beneficial as you make your TJ your own!

Good post.

I got to the point that I blocked people because I got tired of the condescending remarks.

Here’s the deal- I don’t care how much somebody knows or how right they are- Every human being needs to be treated with respect- And if you think you have some intelligence to impart to people one sign of intelligence is understanding that that needs to land in an open mind to do any good. I know some people don’t care if they are liked, but oddly....they sure care to be listened to. There is a relationship to all that.

People shut down when they get criticized and abused.

All that said....can I get on here and expect people to conform to my view? No. Useless to try or care probably.

Also, do I practice what I preach go around with loft words landing on open hearts and leaving people glowing for having been blessed by my presence? No. I do have some good moments, and also really channel my inner peckerhead at other times.

We have a good gang, I’m glad to to get to get on here and chime in and to learn and get ideas - so I keep coming back.

Things don’t need to be perfect to give us pleasure or value. They just need to work. This forum really does.

Yup, these posts are pretty spot on.

Though I disagree about the ways that he and several copycats use, Blaine has a way of doing things, and we're not going to change that.

Personally, I think we should agree to disagree. I'll stop arguing about it and just contribute where and how I best can.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

The fact that you left that part out shows precisely why just giving someone an answer can be highly flawed.

his OP said 4" suspension lift and 35s and that he was happy with that. That's the context in which to provide an answer.

 

[AndyG]

There’s one thing I know with all my heart- Maya Angelou was correct when she said that people will forget what you said but they will never forget how you made them feel.

There are very few negative interactions -for the most part we usually either lift people up or bring them down.

On the short term putting people down can make you feel a little taller.

When you bring others up normally they will carry you along and lift you even further- Because they want others to hear your voice.

 

[JMT]

Im just gonna not bother asking for anymore help from this forum

No, you’re not going to ask for more help here because you didn’t ask for help to begin with. You just wanted validation.

At least you chose no long arms and saved some money. Better shocks and proper tire pressure are you’re friends for better ride quality.

 

[RINC]

Your original post said:

"Any information to help me figure this out would be awesome."

Multiple very informed and knowledgable members then gave you more information about long arm vs short arm as well as linked to threads that discuss this ad nauseam and the take away is that from their experience (more experience than anyone else could ever hope to have) long arms do not live up to the marketing.

It sounds like you are sold on long arms and it is your Jeep. Put on long arms and do your thing!

Plus, with long arms, people will come to you in the parking lot and say, "Damn dude, are those long arms?" and then you can say, "Yes, they are so badass. I love them!" And everyone is happy.

Meanwhile, most can stay with short arms or mid arms and be happy in our decisions.

I call BS. Just last weekend you were profusely expounding on the virtues of a long arm suspension and how I was doing it wrong on short arms.

 

[UKTJ]

I don't think there was much actual discussion of the main points in this video, rather there was a focus on what I believe was the OP's misunderstanding of it. That is IMHO a shame as I think more constructive discussion may be useful.

@Jerry Bransford had issues had issues with getting hung up on his previous long arm, Nate Pickle says in ten years he has not. Pickle acknowledges that others have had the same experience as Jerry, but puts forward one reason he has not, namely the material his arms are made of. The second thing I note is that Pickle has fabricated his own long arm set up, which allows him to set it up how best suits him, was this the case for Jerry or was his an off the shelf long arm? Haw much difference might that make? For example from what I saw Pickle's arms did not seem to sit at the same angle as Jerry's, would that be an important factor?

The other point in the video IIUC was about the travel of the suspension and the extent the axle moved forward when moving upwards. Is there any reason why the information in the video was flawed or incorrect? Was the conclusion reasonable and if not, why not?

To the best of my knowledge Nate Pickle sells t-shirts, but not suspension, so presumably his views don't fall directly into the 'marketing bullshit'category. I'd be interested to what those who prefer a short arm suspension think about the points he made and / or whether their views really relate predominantly to off the shelf set ups rather than a custom fabricated one.

 

[PNW_LJ]

The other point in the video IIUC was about the travel of the suspension and the extent the axle moved forward when moving upwards. Is there any reason why the information in the video was flawed or incorrect? Was the conclusion reasonable and if not, why not?

This is something I'm interested in learning about as well. Does lateral axle movement during suspension travel matter?

 

[deadbeat son]

This is something I'm interested in learning about as well. Does lateral axle movement during suspension travel matter?

I would argue that it could, but not at the amounts that we are talking about here.

If you watch the video, the narrator is flawed in his demonstration. He measures how much lateral movement the axle exhibits at droop, and then directly relates that to the lateral movement at compression in his discussion of compressing over an obstacle. However, what he fails to take into account is that the change in horizontal distance from the pivot point to the end of the arm at the position the arm is in at rest versus that when at full droop is not the same as that during compression.

Look closely at the face of an analog clock, and and look at the relative horizontal positioning of the numbers. If you focus on the 8, you can clearly see the horizontal difference between 7 and 8 is greater than that between the 8 and 9. So if your short arm is in a pseudo 8 o'clock position at rest, it will experience more lateral movement at droop than it will at compression, even if it rotates the same number of degrees.

Now, look at the vertical distance between numbers on the clock face. Notice how the vertical distance between 8 and 9 is much greater than between 8 and 7.

If the resting point of the arm is at 8, then there is much less horizontal travel when compressing than when drooping, given the same vertical movement.

Here: I made a graphic to help illustrate. Math doesn't lie.

You can compare at various points around the figure to draw your own conclusions. Look at your arms at rest, picture on the above graphic, and think of the results.

**edited for new and improved graphic for those who can't think past digital watches.

 

[L J]

The approach being taken provokes defensiveness and drives more threads to go this direction, not less.

who's he more likely to trust, the stranger that provided a respectful, detailed, experienced based response or the stranger that comes at him with some questions posed to make him feel stupid?

This is not directed at you or the OP but this is a TJ forum and not a crochet forum.
We are, in the vast majority, men. If a new member cannot survive straight forward questioning and cold hard facts maybe they just don't belong here. This hasn't been and shouldn't become the place for baseless confirmation and soft and fuzzy affirmation.

We don't get responses like this for questions about steering wheel wraps or winch fairleads.

You must admit that those subjects are relatively inconsequential in comparison to handling and ride quality.

You guys keep running off newcomers as usual.

I say let the overly sensitive leave and maintain this forum as a place of learning for those who want to learn.

 

[mrblaine]

The other point in the video IIUC was about the travel of the suspension and the extent the axle moved forward when moving upwards. Is there any reason why the information in the video was flawed or incorrect? Was the conclusion reasonable and if not, why not?

Here is some very unflawed information. 8 hole bolt patterns to hold rims on are much stronger than our puny 5 hole on a 4.5" diameter bolt circle. That is indisputable with just a modicum of anectdotal observation. Why don't we have 8 hole rims then? Like the info above, what matters is the smaller bolt circle is more than plenty and while the axle does move forward when it moves up at reasonable lift heights for both styles of suspension, the drawbacks are not worth moving to that style. Accurate information doesn't mean it should be a reason to change something that works.

To the best of my knowledge Nate Pickle sells t-shirts, but not suspension, so presumably his views don't fall directly into the 'marketing bullshit'category. I'd be interested to what those who prefer a short arm suspension think about the points he made and / or whether their views really relate predominantly to off the shelf set ups rather than a custom fabricated one.

You've made an erroneous assumption. Knowing the issues with something like a long arm kit doesn't mean you prefer the short arm kit over it, it just means you know and understand the issues and can discuss them.

 

[mrblaine]

This is something I'm interested in learning about as well. Does lateral axle movement during suspension travel matter?

It does, more than a bit, but not in any context that matters in this discussion.

 

[AndyG]

I call BS. Just last weekend you were profusely expounding on the virtues of a long arm suspension and how I was doing it wrong on short arms.

How do people think that arms that swing in a different arc have any affect on performance when you’re going like 2 miles an hour??

I’m sorry but the stupidity of that concept needs to be pointed out- and if you had enough axle movement that it would make a difference at highway speed you would also probably be about to die.

Look how much your axle moves up and down as you travel down the road- With these vehicles being that age they are what most people need are new control arm bushings and any new system of control arms and ends feels beneficial- If they don’t screw things up with the geometry in the process.

 

[PNW_LJ]

I would argue that it could, but not at the amounts that we are talking about here.

If you watch the video, the narrator is flawed in his demonstration. He measures how much lateral movement the axle exhibits at droop, and then directly relates that to the lateral movement at compression in his discussion of compressing over an obstacle. However, what he fails to take into account is that the change in horizontal distance from the pivot point to the end of the arm at the position the arm is in at rest versus that when at full droop is not the same as that during compression.

Look closely at the face of an analog clock, and and look at the relative horizontal positioning of the numbers. If you focus on the 8, you can clearly see the horizontal difference between 7 and 8 is greater than that between the 8 and 9. So if your short arm is in a pseudo 8 o'clock position at rest, it will experience more lateral movement at droop than it will at compression, even if it rotates the same number of degrees.

Ok this is interesting, I was following you up until this point ^^. Still processing the rest.

Now, look at the vertical distance between numbers on the clock face. Notice how the vertical distance between 8 and 9 is much greater than between 8 and 7.

If the resting point of the arm is at 8, then there is much less horizontal travel when compressing than when drooping, given the same vertical movement.

Here: I made a graphic to help illustrate. Math doesn't lie.

View attachment 420108

You can compare at various points around the figure to draw your own conclusions. Look at your arms at rest, picture on the above graphic, and think of the results.

So using the clock analogy:

If a typical 4" lifted short arm on your rig. At stasis, your arm would be at the 8. At full droop, it would be at 7. With a longer arm ("flatter angle"), you would start at 9, but at full droop, you would only be at say 8.5 (less lateral movement).

With the short arm, moving from stasis at 8 to full compression at 9, lateral movement is much less than at droop.

 

[PNW_LJ]

It does, more than a bit, but not in any context that matters in this discussion.

Good to know. Is it a problem with longer-travel setups (say a 14" travel shock)?

Tho I guess at that point you're probably not running a short arm anyways.

 

[mrblaine]

Ok this is interesting, I was following you up until this point ^^. Still processing the rest.




So using the clock analogy:

If a typical 4" lifted short arm on your rig. At stasis, your arm would be at the 8. At full droop, it would be at 7. With a longer arm ("flatter angle"), you would start at 9, but at full droop, you would only be at say 8.5 (less lateral movement).

With the short arm, moving from stasis at 8 to full compression at 9, lateral movement is much less than at droop.

I've said and then repeated this many times over the years of wheeling in JV. At the end of the day, the problems with short arms are not big enough to warrant swapping to a long arm kit and the problems with a short arm kit are not worth swapping back to short arms. It really doesn't get more simple than that for our area.

 

[deadbeat son]

Ok this is interesting, I was following you up until this point ^^. Still processing the rest.




So using the clock analogy:

If a typical 4" lifted short arm on your rig. At stasis, your arm would be at the 8. At full droop, it would be at 7. With a longer arm ("flatter angle"), you would start at 9, but at full droop, you would only be at say 8.5 (less lateral movement).

With the short arm, moving from stasis at 8 to full compression at 9, lateral movement is much less than at droop.

Not what I was saying at all. I was not discussing the long arm at any point.

I'm simply saying if you compare the lateral movement when drooping, from 7 to 8, compared to the lateral movement from 8 to 9 in compression, the delta in lateral is not the same. The lateral movement is much less on compression.

To further confuse the issue, the vertical change from 8 to 9 (in compression) is much greater than from 8 to 7 (in droop). Therefore, compressing 4.5" will result in much less lateral movement than drooping 4.5".

In the video, he displays the lateral when drooping, and then proceeds to explain why this is a problem in compression. His whole premise in the video has a fundamental flaw.

 

[mrblaine]

Good to know. Is it a problem with longer-travel setups (say a 14" travel shock)?

Tho I guess at that point you're probably not running a short arm anyways.

There are other issues with a 14" travel shock at reasonable bias on a short arm. The front arm angle gets way too steep to force it up a lot of the undercuts out there. Best limit that crap to 12ish".

 

[suicideking]

If you're thinking long arm, I would go with the Savvy mid arm. When I got my LJ, it had the Teraflex LCG Pro on 35's. I was constantly getting stuck on the rear arms, similar to Jerry's picture.

I eventually had the Savvy mid arm installed when it came out and rarely get stuck now. It just handles perfectly on the trails. Also handles better than the LA did on the road.