Is there some play that is inherent to the design that would allow that deflection, or could there be a play in a pin? Sorry if that doesnt make sense just looking at the photo and wondering if there another cause to the deflection.
NSG370 Rebuild
- Thread starter rlinares40
- Start date
Is there some play that is inherent to the design that would allow that deflection, or could there be a play in a pin? Sorry if that doesnt make sense just looking at the photo and wondering if there another cause to the deflection.
Yeah there's some play but I did bend it slightly because I thought I could press the pin out
Here's the before and after I showed it some love..
Here it is installed back in the case with the bronze plate for testing. Everything moved smoothly.
Whitbread Bronze Guide Plate Install:
- Remove 3-4 and 5-6 Synchro Holder.
- Move guide plate forward to where the reverse and 1-2 rails are free from the guide plate.
- Locations where you will use a Dremel or file to remove material.
- You can go as fast or slow in this step as you'd like. Take some material off then check to see if the assembly comes apart. Repeat the process until it does come apart. Note: I had to take the most material off from the Reverse Holder not so much the 1-2 Holder.
- You can go as fast or slow in this step as you'd like. Take some material off then check to see if the assembly comes apart. Repeat the process until it does come apart. Note: I had to take the most material off from the Reverse Holder not so much the 1-2 Holder.
- At this point you should be left with the guide plate and holders.
- Note that the twisted dog ears will keep the holders connected. Take a Propane/MAP Torch and heat the twisted ends straight with a crescent wrench. Do it slow and take your time so the ends don't break, if they do you can always weld them back on. (I broke one and welded it back on)
- I opted to straighten and keep the twisted pieces so the brackets would sit all the way in the bronze plate. (way more stable)
- At this point the guide plate should be free.
- You will need to file the dog ears to fit in the bronze plate correctly.
- Since there is a thickness difference file here so it fits flush with the case.
- Picture showing both are flush.
- Put everything back in reverse order and you should have yourself a shift fork with the bronze guide plate.
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Finally found some time to post. Here's a little update on the shift fork pads:
Everything fits snug and moves around nicely with the cheap resin and still need to try the design out with the high heat resin. There is 6 pads total, I've completed the middle reverse pad. It seems like the 4 side pads will be the same size and for sure the middle 1-2 slider pad is different.
I will make sure to replicate every pad, still deciding if I'll move forward with the high heat resin or if I will send the CAD files off to be machined out of bronze.
Everything fits snug and moves around nicely with the cheap resin and still need to try the design out with the high heat resin. There is 6 pads total, I've completed the middle reverse pad. It seems like the 4 side pads will be the same size and for sure the middle 1-2 slider pad is different.
I will make sure to replicate every pad, still deciding if I'll move forward with the high heat resin or if I will send the CAD files off to be machined out of bronze.
Finally found some time to post. Here's a little update on the shift fork pads:
View attachment 474870
View attachment 474871
Everything fits snug and moves around nicely with the cheap resin and still need to try the design out with the high heat resin. There is 6 pads total, I've completed the middle reverse pad. It seems like the 4 side pads will be the same size and for sure the middle 1-2 slider pad is different.
I will make sure to replicate every pad, still deciding if I'll move forward with the high heat resin or if I will send the CAD files off to be machined out of bronze.
been following- your a little bit over my head on skill set to tackle this- but I have the 6 speed. Wondering about the confidence in 3D printing having the right composited choices for the environment/longevity. On the other hand -how hard/expensive is to make from bronze. Is there a radius you need to match?
Finally found some time to post. Here's a little update on the shift fork pads:
View attachment 474870
View attachment 474871
Everything fits snug and moves around nicely with the cheap resin and still need to try the design out with the high heat resin. There is 6 pads total, I've completed the middle reverse pad. It seems like the 4 side pads will be the same size and for sure the middle 1-2 slider pad is different.
I will make sure to replicate every pad, still deciding if I'll move forward with the high heat resin or if I will send the CAD files off to be machined out of bronze.
Currently the cheap resin is too brittle but the high heat resin could be different.
Confidence in the high heat resin material is pretty high, the manufacturer claims the resin is resistant up to 450°F for like 30 minutes and 200°F for 14 days continuously. In my mind 200°F for 14 continuous days is more than enough for a buffer, as far as longevity only time will tell, I'd probably do benchmarks and pull the transmission out at 1K, 5K, 15K, 30K and check how the material is holding up. My guess is it will probably hold up better than whatever cheap injection mold plastic the factory used. With the current printer I have I could probably crank out 20-30 pieces in about 30 minutes.
Bronze would be a lot harder as I would have to send it off to be machined. Depending on the profile I'd probably have to change the design into a two halves with a press-in pin to make it easier on whoever is machining (would probably bring down the overall cost). As far as longevity with the bronze I would not be worried about it from a material wear standpoint, from a design aspect yes.
You could do something like the link below for the 4 pads that hold the synchro slider but the middle pads I'd be worried about since they are not engaged all the time and the middle pad could potentially fall off (Again goes back to the design of the piece).
https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/tr-6060-complete-bronze-shift-fork-pads-upgrade-kit-tremec/
As far as the radius, I measured how much pad material was exposed on my used set and came out to roughly 2mm so that's what the "wear layer" is designed to. The outside pieces would be flat and the middle piece would have some curvature to it. What you see in the pictures in my previous post is version 8 or 9 of the middle shift pad, with some curvature built into it.
Just FYI:
When rebuilding do not order the expensive kit that comes with all the new brass synchros (I think the price is usually $700-800). Just order the Carbon Kit from Synchrotech as it's cheaper and considered an "upgrade" vs the OEM part.
https://sync-trans.com/products/syn-nsg-c-nsg370-1-6-r-carbon-synchro-set
The kit doesn't come with the Steel "top plate" but I figured out that a new one isn't needed. Below you can see the comparison between a new one and one with roughly 120K miles, they look identical. The only reason I bought these because I thought mine "looked bad".
Will be keeping the ones that came with the transmission and storing the new 3-4 Synchro kits.
Also, the 3-4 synchro kit retails for $150 (cheapest i've seen it) but that is because they use "NSG370" here in the USA. I've been purchasing a ton of parts from overseas and it comes out cheaper than buying them here. For example, I purchased two sets of the 3-4 synchros for a total of 80 euros shipped, that would have been over $300 here in the states.
Mercedes Part # 211 260 1545
When it comes to synchros and most internals anything that says Mercedes 711,712,716 is the same as an NSG370.
When rebuilding do not order the expensive kit that comes with all the new brass synchros (I think the price is usually $700-800). Just order the Carbon Kit from Synchrotech as it's cheaper and considered an "upgrade" vs the OEM part.
https://sync-trans.com/products/syn-nsg-c-nsg370-1-6-r-carbon-synchro-set
The kit doesn't come with the Steel "top plate" but I figured out that a new one isn't needed. Below you can see the comparison between a new one and one with roughly 120K miles, they look identical. The only reason I bought these because I thought mine "looked bad".
Will be keeping the ones that came with the transmission and storing the new 3-4 Synchro kits.
Also, the 3-4 synchro kit retails for $150 (cheapest i've seen it) but that is because they use "NSG370" here in the USA. I've been purchasing a ton of parts from overseas and it comes out cheaper than buying them here. For example, I purchased two sets of the 3-4 synchros for a total of 80 euros shipped, that would have been over $300 here in the states.
Mercedes Part # 211 260 1545
When it comes to synchros and most internals anything that says Mercedes 711,712,716 is the same as an NSG370.
Not one specific store but google is your friend.
1 synchro - Looks like 1-3-4 are the same part Mercedes A2112601545
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1327548319...pid=5337789113&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1
2 Synchro - Mercedes A2112603245
https://www.deutsche-parts.co.uk/a2112603245-synchronizer-body-new-genuine-part.html
I would use the carbon set since youre only replacing 1-2. Looks like $140 ish for two of the inner and outter.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1728024054...pid=5337789113&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1731039651...pid=5337789113&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1
Well it's been a while but I was pretty busy during the holidays. Still working on the CAD files for the rest of the shifter pads.
Got a quote for a design mentioned in a previous post.
I think I'll redesign without the press-fit pins.
Doing some research on Loctite Epoxy Weld Bonding Compound. Apparently it holds up to any and all engine fluids and would simplify how the bronze pads would attach to the shifter fork. Hopefully that would bring production costs down.
Got a quote for a design mentioned in a previous post.
I think I'll redesign without the press-fit pins.
Doing some research on Loctite Epoxy Weld Bonding Compound. Apparently it holds up to any and all engine fluids and would simplify how the bronze pads would attach to the shifter fork. Hopefully that would bring production costs down.
How did you ever make out on the plastic pads?
I have a thought, I am going to try as I have an NG all apart on the bench awaiting assembly. NP231 shift fork pads are readily available and cheap see image. I had a set lying on the bench.. so
On the NGS in the 'top' 12 o'clock position the small pad fits prefect in the groove. No pins but it is locked in by pressure of the slider and the groove in the fork. SOLVED!
In the 'side' positions 9 and 3 o'clock... there is no groove to lock it, the factory used injection molding but... the small pad fits nicely, it is easy to cut a groove in the fork like the top in about the location of the upper injection points. SOLVED!
Nothing to lose since a new fork is like $700 +
In my thinking the injection molding of the pad was great for factory assembly at production rate to ensure quality. For fit form and function, the pads will self locate and hold with the groove same as the NP231 transfer case with zero issues. Assembly, be careful and ensure they locate and nest.
Who knows may a reader here will have a good thought... I have nothing to lose by trying. Simple and very cheap.
I have a thought, I am going to try as I have an NG all apart on the bench awaiting assembly. NP231 shift fork pads are readily available and cheap see image. I had a set lying on the bench.. so
On the NGS in the 'top' 12 o'clock position the small pad fits prefect in the groove. No pins but it is locked in by pressure of the slider and the groove in the fork. SOLVED!
In the 'side' positions 9 and 3 o'clock... there is no groove to lock it, the factory used injection molding but... the small pad fits nicely, it is easy to cut a groove in the fork like the top in about the location of the upper injection points. SOLVED!
Nothing to lose since a new fork is like $700 +
In my thinking the injection molding of the pad was great for factory assembly at production rate to ensure quality. For fit form and function, the pads will self locate and hold with the groove same as the NP231 transfer case with zero issues. Assembly, be careful and ensure they locate and nest.
Who knows may a reader here will have a good thought... I have nothing to lose by trying. Simple and very cheap.
Here is the test piece. The centers have to be widened a touch. In the side, the groove aligns with both sides of the injection hole plus a touch.
Dremmel with cut-off and file makes and patience. Do not over cut the groove. The pads nest nice a snug self-holding. Make sure they sit flush, widen the groove a touch, I can see through these with a light behind. These are OE NP231 pads, used, I had lying on the bench so they don't look the best in the images.
Dremmel with cut-off and file makes and patience. Do not over cut the groove. The pads nest nice a snug self-holding. Make sure they sit flush, widen the groove a touch, I can see through these with a light behind. These are OE NP231 pads, used, I had lying on the bench so they don't look the best in the images.
DJayroe2
New Member
How did this hold up? I'm about to tear mine down and I can't see spending $700 for a easy fix. I'm also a machinist.
DJayroe2
New Member
How did this hold up? I'm about to tear mine down and I can't see myself spending $700 for a cheap fix. I'm a machinist and debated the brass but dont want those floating around if they come loose. This I could definitely sign onto of it worked well
Sorry y’all!
Had a kid in the middle of this project and works been BUSY.
@DJayroe2 I can send you the CAD files of what I have if you want to try and machine them. If you look at the posts I found an adhesive that would probably work. If it works send me a set lol
Had a kid in the middle of this project and works been BUSY.
@DJayroe2 I can send you the CAD files of what I have if you want to try and machine them. If you look at the posts I found an adhesive that would probably work. If it works send me a set lol
Doesn’t help that I bought A 78 F150 that I’ve been restoring at the same time. Too many projects
DJayroe2
New Member
I can understand having too many projects, I wish this one was on my project but its my daily. Yeah I'll take a look at your files for sure and see what I can do with them. I'd like to see how they are attached. My only concern is adding a untested piece of metal than could possibly damage other gears.
Seems to be just fine, I can see any problems. Apples to apples, these were made for the NP231 t-case. They see the same function and duty cycle. I figured there is nothing to lose. You have to be smart about it, my dremmel is perfect for the job. Test fit test fit... There is no way for them to come out. Look at it like this, if the pads are gone, these parts are cheap you have nothing to lose here by trying since the rails are otherwise junk so to speak.
DJayroe2
New Member
Hell yeah brother, I'm a machinist so I have all the tools needed to make this happen. After alot of thought this is probably a better way of having it to be honest. They will be changeable after this. I'm breaking into mine this weekend. I'm also gonna make the stand and making that puller at work. I appreciate you sharing, I think your on to something
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