Steering wander: Jeep is all over the road

[4x4king]

Hey guys new to the forum, actually new to the 4x4 world in general, im a hot rod guy from birth, and recently bought my first jeep, I seem to have some of the same issue ive been reading about, the difference is with my jeep, it doesn't matter if im doing 15mph or 65mph its all over the road, and lots of slack in the steering it feels like the wind is pushing it around but w/o any wind :/ to be fair the jeep needs tires bad, i know tires and a alignment will help tremendously but im just not confident it's going to fix the issue completely, because the jeep is really bad all over the road, this is the first jeep so ive never been in another so not exactly sure how it should feel , but the wander is bad enough that ive stopped driving it (on the highway its actually dangerous) its parked now because im working on a offroad jeep trailer for it, im taking it on a trip this spring, and wanna makes sure its in the best as possible condition i really have no idea what kind of lift it is other then 3' i will post pics of what it looks like, hoping someone might know anything about what the lift is, ive been reading about caster, toe in, the geometry with track bar and drag link having the right pitman arm, etc , all seem to look good, maybe bushings most likely need to be replaced, ive read a little about the heavyduty currie currectlync tie rod system, some claim its fixed there wondering issue, i guess what Im wondering is if that something i should put on right away with the tires and alignment or if i should wait to see how much tires/alignment fixes, i don't wanna start just throwing parts at it until im sure of what i need, but i do want it right, also is it even possible for a jeep with 33' tires and a 3' lift to drive as smoothly on the highway as stock? (or close to it) there is a 4x4 parts world here and figure i need to spend some time picking brains, but there also salesmen and like i said I don't wanna just start buying parts tell i know i need them, anyway ANY thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated..
thanks

 

[Chris]

Could you please attach larger photos. Those tiny little thumbnails are impossible to see. Oddly enough, nothing happens when you click on them either, which means they were likely uploaded as very small photos to begin with.

 

[4x4king]

Could you please attach larger photos. Those tiny little thumbnails are impossible to see. Oddly enough, nothing happens when you click on them either, which means they were likely uploaded as very small photos to begin with.

it actually took apple care just for to get those photos attached :-/ i kept getting (file is to large ) apple said it might be the site, nonsense, but ill try again right now, thanks for the heads up, i wasn't sure how small they'd actually come out. ill try again.

 

[Chris]

it actually took apple care just for to get those photos attached :-/ i kept getting (file is to large ) apple said it might be the site, nonsense, but ill try again right now, thanks for the heads up, i wasn't sure how small they'd actually come out. ill try again.

Oh! Yes there is an 8MB file limit size for photos, but that’s massive. A photo that’s 8MB would be absolutely huge.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Those pics were definitely too hard to see until I zoomed my browser up to 400%. The good news is you have a stock un-dropped Pitman arm and your driver's side track bar mount height is still stock as both should be. An aftermarket dropped Pitman arm and/or a dropped driver's side track bar mount can cause a problem called bump steer that can also cause your Jeep to move left/right when it hits bumps/dips in the road. Fortunately you don't have that issue.

That leaves three possibilities for your Jeep wandering. A bad toe-in, insufficient caster angle, and/or bad tires. After we tell you how you can measure and set your own toe-in as accurately as a good alignment tech with an alignment rack can. You need nothing more than a tape measure, wrench, and pliers. The caster angle is a little more difficult and without experience it's really hard to measure it accurately so I suggest having an alignment shop check it. The stock caster angle is 7 degrees but with 33" tires you can be at 6 degrees. Together with a proper toe-in angle, caster angle is critical to having good steering... stable steering on the highway and good return-to-center after completing a turn. Your TJ's caster angle is normally not adjustable unless you have either adjustable length control arms or, which gives less overall caster angle adjustment than adjustable length control arms can, adjustable cam bolts on your lower front control arms.

Unless compensated for by adjustable length arms or cam bolts, lifting the frame up via a suspension lift naturally reduces the caster angle. Normally a 3" doesn't reduce it enough to cause a significantly reduced caster angle but if your control arm lengths are adjustable, perhaps the previous owner didn't adjust them properly and they reduced the caster angle too much.

Personally I'd adjust the toe-in myself, it's easy and quicker to complete than it would even take to drive to an alignment shop. Then I'd take it in and instruct them that you only want to know your caster angle. See how close it is to 6 or 7 degrees. And rather than a standard alignment shop where their tech's eyes glaze over when they see a Jeep with a suspension lift, I'd call around to find a 4x4 shop that has an alignment rack and have them do it. Many 4x4 shops do have alignment racks.

And if your tires are shot, they can cause tracking issues too but more likely your wandering is caused by a bad toe-in angle and/or insufficient caster angle.

 

[4x4king]

Hey guys sorry it took so long to get these pics posted my iMac went on the fritz..
Anyway let me know if your not able to see them again..
(Back to the thread)
Any info on the lift! How well the jeep should ride! Anything else that may be causing the wander! Or any other comments, would be greatly appreciated.... thank you

 

[John Scoggins]

The bar code sticker on the steering box looks like it might be a Cardin rebuilt steering box from Autozone. Thoses Cardin boxes seem to be notorious for getting loose real quick so along with all the other suggestions check to see if the steering box is loose and any other components by doing what is called here as the Dry Steering Test.

 

[4x4king]

thanks everybody for your comments super appreciated,
JERRY you mentioned adjusting the toe in yourself, I looked through some of the threads and couldn't see anything on it, Is there another how to thread I could check out on making that adjustment myself?

 

[4x4king]

The bar code sticker on the steering box looks like it might be a Cardin rebuilt steering box from Autozone. Thoses Cardin boxes seem to be notorious for getting loose real quick so along with all the other suggestions check to see if the steering box is loose and any other components by doing what is called here as the Dry Steering Test.

hey john I couldn't find anything on "dry steering test" would you mind walking me through that?

 

[AndyG]

You will be surprised how good that vehicle can drive once you get it sorted out... Lifted or not don't be discouraged it can be right. Pay attention to what these guys post and you will be on the right track.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

hey john I couldn't find anything on "dry steering test" would you mind walking me through that?

With the tires on the ground, have a helper repeatedly turn the steering wheel back & forth with short turns while you watch the steering system for sideways movement/slop where components are bolted together. Especially like where the track bar is bolted to its brackets. There should be no sideways movement between components. Rotational play is normal about the long axis of the drag link and tie rod since they are attached via ball joints.

 

[ac_]

thanks everybody for your comments super appreciated,
JERRY you mentioned adjusting the toe in yourself, I looked through some of the threads and couldn't see anything on it, Is there another how to thread I could check out on making that adjustment myself?

For your reading pleasure! Feel free to ask questions:

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/how-to-align-your-jeep-wrangler-tj.85/

 

[AndyG]

How'd this turn out ? Did you get it dialed in?

 

[Jon Wildes]

Hey guys sorry it took so long to get these pics posted my iMac went on the fritz..
Anyway let me know if your not able to see them again..
(Back to the thread)
Any info on the lift! How well the jeep should ride! Anything else that may be causing the wander! Or any other comments, would be greatly appreciated.... thank you

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Currie Correctlync steering and control arms have done a great deal to help with my steering issues. I would look into something like this as well.

 

[4x4king]

How'd this turn out ? Did you get it dialed in?

Not yet man, I still need to get tires and align it before I get started on the suggestion made, I took a brief break with the jeep to try and finish up the jeep trailer I’m building, its a 91 wrangler cut in half and extended, I painted it the same color scheme as the jeep, built boxes for it and plan on buildind racks for it then slap a rooftop tent on it and hit the hills After of course I get the jeep all dialed in. I plan on purchasing the tires in a week or so then go from there. I super appreciate the interest and words of encouragement, as this is my first 4x4 adventure but I’ll definitely keep u guys updated on both the trailer and jeep as it gets closer.
Spring is around the corner so I gots to get a rocken.
Thanks again

 

[TJ Hunnicutt]

Not yet man, I still need to get tires and align it before I get started on the suggestion made, I took a brief break with the jeep to try and finish up the jeep trailer I’m building, its a 91 wrangler cut in half and extended, I painted it the same color scheme as the jeep, built boxes for it and plan on buildind racks for it then slap a rooftop tent on it and hit the hills After of course I get the jeep all dialed in. I plan on purchasing the tires in a week or so then go from there. I super appreciate the interest and words of encouragement, as this is my first 4x4 adventure but I’ll definitely keep u guys updated on both the trailer and jeep as it gets closer.
Spring is around the corner so I gots to get a rocken.
Thanks again

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Nice!

 

[AndyG]

Man that is just so impressive.

 

[LapisWrangler97]

Cool

 

[mrblaine]

A few things that may help. There are two steering tests that should be done. One is the dry steering test done with the engine off. A helper sits behind the wheel and turns the steering wheel one direction until there is some resistance, then the other until there is some resistance. Once those two limits are defined, then the steering wheel should be turned RAPIDLY back and forth between those two limits. Get under the front of the rig and look for any movement between connecting components that indicate wear.

A minor correction on the draglink. It should exhibit much rotational play around the long axis. The pin at the right side knuckle exits the body of the TRE that is formed on the end of it through a slot that runs perpendicular to the long axis. That slot limits rotational roll of the drag link.

Once you are done with the dry test, start it and then do the power test. That puts a bit more force on the components and will show things that are worn that the dry test doesn't.

The first thing I would look at is the rod end on the RE trackbar. The rust powder evident in the pics indicates some untoward movement which can mean the end is shot or the bolt is loose.

Someone has swapped on a ZJ tie rod. It may be due to wear, or they were trying to solve the same problem and that didn't do it.

As with all things like this, diagnose first, then replace and repair. Do not just start throwing parts at it until you know which parts are bad.

The shocks look new. The bump stops don't. You would benefit from examining the amount of exposed shock shaft at ride height to see if something is a bit out of whack in that regard.

 

[4x4king]

So here’s my update so far.. brand new tires made a huge difference, I’d say 70% better driving it home was the first time I could actually use one hand to drive down the highway.
It still was a pretty rough ride but after playing with the tire pressure the most of the stiffness went away, my caster Is at 4.8 degrees with no more adjustment, next step is going to be upper and lower control arms so I can get to that 6-7 degrees. I’m gonna do them myself, since I found a set of Apoc online upper and lower for $299.00 4wp wants $450 just for the uppers unless someone knows something about that brand that I should stay away from??
Not sure about other 4wp stores but the one here in reno, are pretty much salesmen, when I asked about the stiffness of the ride the wanted me to buy new shocks :-/ I tried to explain there brand new bilsten 5100 put on by the p.o they said something like there not set up properly and need the 5125. From what I can find online the 5100 are fine for my ride, unless someone knows something different ?? I’m sticking with them. By the way they almost had every tire at a different psi 50,45,40,40..
It does have a shake but not real noticeable until I’m about 50-55 mph I’m thinking maybe driveline, pinion angle, really not sure does anyone have suggestions?
The steering still feels a bit loose but way better, I’ve been reading and some guys recommend new bushings, I’m all for that but does anyone have a suggestion on which bushings to start replacing or is there a kit of some kind?? All and all I’m pretty happy with the jeep.
Like I said before it’s my first jeep so I really don’t have anything to compare it to, but I think once I finish dialing it all in, I’d feel pretty comfortable driving it down to Baja pulling my jeep trailer🏖
Any thoughts or suggestions, super appreciated.... thanks