Yes, still another death wobble question

Jerry Bransford said:
Then explain this please... how can a wheel not be centered when using the correct tapered base lug nuts that force the wheel's lug nut openings to center about the lugs?

And please explain why the majority of us who are running aftermarket wheels, the vast majority of which are lug centric, are not having problems with DW?

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Sure can buddy. I'll explain it again for ya.
Put the rim and tire (let's just call it 'wheel' onto the lug studs. Then let's hit that first lug nut with the impact wrench to mount the wheel good and tight. Gotta make sure it doesn't move, right.
So now that wheel is centered on that lug. Right? Not centered on the hub, but centered on that lug.
So next we drive down the second nut. With that fancy angle on it it should force the wheel to be centered on that lug. Not the hub, the lug. But to try and force that wheel to re-center on the 2nd lug it has to overcome the forces holding it centered on the 1st lug. The one you just ran down tight with an impact wrench. This means the 2nd fancy tapered nut has to drive down on one side of the fancy tapered hole to force it to re-center on the 2nd lug. This can cause the lug to bend a bit. Or maybe just elongate that tapered hole a tiny bit.
Now it's time to drive that 3rd fancy nut down good and tight. Want to make sure the wheel is centered on the 3rd lug, right? Not centered on the hub. No longer centered on the 1st lug. Not centered on the 2nd lug. Nope, centered on the 3rd lug. Well now, that fancy tapered nut has to overcome the forces holding the wheel centered on the 2nd lug, and overcome the forces holding the wheel centered on the 1st lug. So now that 3rd fancy nut really has to exert a whole lot of force against that fancy tapered hole in the rim. The aluminum rim.
Now we get to try and pull that wheel 2 more times, trying to get the wheel centered on the 2 remaining lugs.
Not once did you tighten down the wheel centered on the hub.
Now let's imagine that Christ our lord and saviour wasn't the guy running the lathe or CNC machine the day your rim was produced. The guy centered the rim by the hub of the rim, not by the fancy tapered #1 hole where the first fancy tapered nut will be driven to center the wheel on your axle.
So now we have plenty of chances to center your wheel on your axle. Just none of them to the hub of your axle.
And we have plenty of chances to slightly, just slightly, deform that rim with the fancy holes. Or deform, just slightly deform, the lugs
And there you are. Tire balanced for the 8th time. Since it take a very small imbalance in the wheel, to the point of you re-re-re-balancing the tires to get rid of the problem. It has to be the guy running the balancing machine. And the guy at the 2nd shop. And the guy at the 3rd shop.
 
Its been said a few times on here already, but I'll say it again. It is probably the wheels/tires. When I first got my jeep forever years ago, it still had the factory wheels and tires. At only 20k miles, it would develop a terrible DW at 45 mph on a certain bump near my house. Like come to a complete stop to get it to stop kinda DW. The suspension and steering were still very tight, and the tires Goodyear wranglers of some type were in great shape. Factory wheels. Factory tires. Fixed it by upgrading to 33x12.50r15's on steel wheels. I have not experienced DW since. I believe every jeep (every live axle front) has a certain harmonic, and if the wheels and tires somehow match that harmonic, DW will occur, even if everything else is in good shape. Probably some kind of weird mix of caster, scrub radius and egg- shaped tires. Its usually the last thing people replace though, because it is by far the most expensive.
 
Goatman said:
Put the rim and tire (let's just call it 'wheel' onto the lug studs. Then let's hit that first lug nut with the impact wrench to mount the wheel good and tight. Gotta make sure it doesn't move, right.
So now that wheel is centered on that lug. Right? Not centered on the hub, but centered on that lug.
So next we drive down the second nut. With that fancy angle on it it should force the wheel to be centered on that lug. Not the hub, the lug. But to try and force that wheel to re-center on the 2nd lug it has to overcome the forces holding it centered on the 1st lug. The one you just ran down tight with an impact wrench. This means the 2nd fancy tapered nut has to drive down on one side of the fancy tapered hole to force it to re-center on the 2nd lug. This can cause the lug to bend a bit. Or maybe just elongate that tapered hole a tiny bit.
Now it's time to drive that 3rd fancy nut down good and tight. Want to make sure the wheel is centered on the 3rd lug, right? Not centered on the hub. No longer centered on the 1st lug. Not centered on the 2nd lug. Nope, centered on the 3rd lug. Well now, that fancy tapered nut has to overcome the forces holding the wheel centered on the 2nd lug, and overcome the forces holding the wheel centered on the 1st lug. So now that 3rd fancy nut really has to exert a whole lot of force against that fancy tapered hole in the rim. The aluminum rim.
Now we get to try and pull that wheel 2 more times, trying to get the wheel centered on the 2 remaining lugs.
Not once did you tighten down the wheel centered on the hub.
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And this is why I don't put wheels on with am impact. or more accurately don't start tightening them down until they are all at least a little snug. But I haven't let a shop bolt on a wheel to one of my jeeps in a long time. I take them the wheels and tires on a trailer.
 
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Goatman said:
Sure can buddy. I'll explain it again for ya.
Put the rim and tire (let's just call it 'wheel' onto the lug studs. Then let's hit that first lug nut with the impact wrench to mount the wheel good and tight. Gotta make sure it doesn't move, right.
So now that wheel is centered on that lug. Right? Not centered on the hub, but centered on that lug.
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Now you're really stretching things by creating an unlikely scenario where an improperly installed lug-centric wheel could cause a problem. Don't try to blame a problem caused by simple improper installation technique on the wheel type. You could blame anything on anything by saying it wouldn't work right if installed improperly.
 
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Not just install. Every and I mean every wheel is slightly out of balance. It's the nature of the manufacturing process. Some are worse than others. And some are just crap. Unless you are building for world records on the salt flats or NASA the balance of the rim is never spot on. And on a solid axle it seems everything needs to be in good shape. I've seen IFS with rod ends so loose you could use them as maracas. Yet no sign of a vibe at all. So let's just agree to disagree and not have this same argument every time there is a post about a vibe that can't be fixed. I'm not the only one who knows the difference between the two types of rims. I would suspect 90+% of folks have no idea the two exist. I don't know why you need to try and shout down information you don't happen to agree with. Really. I just don't get it. If I am wrong about something I'm more than w9to admit it. Nobody knows everything. Nobody. And I have had repeatedly seen them cure a vibe that nothing else could. You haven't. Dosen't make my experience less true.
 
Hey guys, new here. I just recently purchased my 1st Jeep. I got DW on the way home. Pretty familiar with it to to all the 3/4 ton dodges I’ve owned. So I went to work on replacing the front end. New ball joints, hubs, tie rod ends (factory style), alignment at a Jeep shop, and dampener. I have not replaced my control arms or shocks. I suspect they need to be replaced too. My tires are 255/75/17s. I get the steering feel that DW is about to happen but goes away. Only on rippled roads. My question is, should I start by replacing the tires? They are good but like the posts before me, you never know. Or should the control arms cause DW?
 
I forgot to mention that I replaced the track bar as well. I went cheap...like Duralast from Autozone cheap. I don’t have a lift so what would be a good one to replace it with if that could be the culprit? I do plan on a lift (3-4) in the very near future. But it’ll be at the end of the year or so. For now, I’d love to just enjoy my Jeep.
 
04JeepCharlie said:
I forgot to mention that I replaced the track bar as well. I went cheap...like Duralast from Autozone cheap. I don’t have a lift so what would be a good one to replace it with if that could be the culprit? I do plan on a lift (3-4) in the very near future. But it’ll be at the end of the year or so. For now, I’d love to just enjoy my Jeep.
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Parts replacement is guessing -diagnose , diagnose , diagnose.



Is it active or passive death wobble ..active means it does it at a certain speed , consistently, passive is it only does it when you hit a bump.

If it is active , it's a tire, rotate them and make sure they are inflated properly .

Do a dry steering test, turn the wheel from 10-2 slowly and watch what moves what , and see where you may have excess play, especially at the track bar ends .

You can , and folks often do, have both a bad tire and worn parts , the tire sets it off, and the parts magnify the issue .

Keep us posted. Death wobble is fixable , and it's only the Jeep telling you it needs work , not a defect.
 
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AndyG said:
Parts replacement is guessing -diagnose , diagnose , diagnose.



Is it active or passive death wobble ..active means it does it at a certain speed , consistently, passive is it only does it when you hit a bump.

If it is active , it's a tire, rotate them and make sure they are inflated properly .

Do a dry steering test, turn the wheel from 10-2 slowly and watch what moves what , and see where you may have excess play, especially at the track bar ends .

You can , and folks often do, have both a bad tire and worn parts , the tire sets it off, and the parts magnify the issue .

Keep us posted. Death wobble is fixable , and it's only the Jeep telling you it needs work , not a defect.
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I did the dry steering test when I 1st got it. I saw the track bar was fubar’d. So I replaced that and the old tie rods. Checked ball joints when I was doing breaks. It needed them too. So I replaced them. I didn’t want to throw parts at it but it needed everything for the most part. I didn’t how ever check the control arms nor tires. I was considering getting AT tires because these MTs are rough and I don’t care for how they ride/steer. I’ll do a dry test again and see what she tells me. Thank you for the reply!
 
04JeepCharlie said:
I did the dry steering test when I 1st got it. I saw the track bar was fubar’d. So I replaced that and the old tie rods. Checked ball joints when I was doing breaks. It needed them too. So I replaced them. I didn’t want to throw parts at it but it needed everything for the most part. I didn’t how ever check the control arms nor tires. I was considering getting AT tires because these MTs are rough and I don’t care for how they ride/steer. I’ll do a dry test again and see what she tells me. Thank you for the reply!
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You can roll a Jeep forward or backward and slam on the brakes and watch the control arm connections.

Clapped-out mud tires certainly are going to be horrible.

Keep us posted man you're in the right direction.
 
The death wobble can certainly be a real problem to resolve. If you are planning a lift in the near future I would suggest going to the ZJ steering upgrade instead of putting the weaker TJ steering parts in.
Do a thorough dry steering test, and then have a buddy do it too. The slightest slop can help the DW take off.
But the primary problem is in the wheel/tire being out of balance. Try rotating tires front to back. Check you have good toe settings. Steering wheel perfectly centered 12 o clock. Wheel bearings and ball joints tight. This should cure 90% of the death wobbles out there. The remaining 10% of people need to go farther. Do the easy stuff first and see how it is.
 
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kmas0n said:
And this is why I don't put wheels on with am impact. or more accurately don't start tightening them down until they are all at least a little snug. But I haven't let a shop bolt on a wheel to one of my jeeps in a long time. I take them the wheels and tires on a trailer.
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Yep, sound and solid practice with non hub centric rims is to ease in the lugnuts evenly. I generally use an extension on a socket and turn them in by hand or if I do run them in with the impact, when they bottom out, I back them off and get them all even.

While I don't doubt it is very possible to cause an issue, I've seen way too many rigs and lug centric rims without DW to give it much value other than a last ditch effort to finally diagnose DW.
 
04JeepCharlie said:
I did the dry steering test when I 1st got it. I saw the track bar was fubar’d. So I replaced that and the old tie rods. Checked ball joints when I was doing breaks. It needed them too. So I replaced them. I didn’t want to throw parts at it but it needed everything for the most part. I didn’t how ever check the control arms nor tires. I was considering getting AT tires because these MTs are rough and I don’t care for how they ride/steer. I’ll do a dry test again and see what she tells me. Thank you for the reply!
Click to expand...
Let me help with a couple of things, do the dry steering test hard and fast bumping each limit of the steering wheel against the resistance to turn the tires so the looseness of any component is more pronounced. After the dry test, start it up and do the same test with the engine running to get more force into the system.

If at the end of it and you have found no loose or obviously worn parts, then it is time to do the test for deficient upper control arms. Toe it out to 1/2"+ and go for a drive where a known DW inducement exists. If you can repeatedly hit the same places that used to bring about DW and can no longer recreate the issue, then take a very hard look at the uppers and don't overlook the bushings in the axle mounts.

In case it has been mentioned and I missed it, I don't care how well and perfect your tires are. If they are not round and can run at speed without tread squirm or hop, you will never stop DW. Watch them on the balancer or get them on the rig and run them at speed to check.
 
Goatman said:
Not just install. Every and I mean every wheel is slightly out of balance. It's the nature of the manufacturing process. Some are worse than others. And some are just crap. Unless you are building for world records on the salt flats or NASA the balance of the rim is never spot on. And on a solid axle it seems everything needs to be in good shape. I've seen IFS with rod ends so loose you could use them as maracas. Yet no sign of a vibe at all. So let's just agree to disagree and not have this same argument every time there is a post about a vibe that can't be fixed. I'm not the only one who knows the difference between the two types of rims. I would suspect 90+% of folks have no idea the two exist. I don't know why you need to try and shout down information you don't happen to agree with. Really. I just don't get it. If I am wrong about something I'm more than w9to admit it. Nobody knows everything. Nobody. And I have had repeatedly seen them cure a vibe that nothing else could. You haven't. Dosen't make my experience less true.
Click to expand...
The biggest issue is two-fold. If your only tool is a hammer, every solution is a nail. If we start making folks get the hub centric issue at the top of the list, there will be far too many folks who buy new rims or spend an inordinate amount of time chasing down hub centric spacers for their rims and guess what? They will still have DW.

Let us try and keep it in perspective, recognize that non hub centric rims being the cause of DW is very low and caution folks to the same.
 
Jerry Bransford said:
Then explain this please... how can a wheel not be centered when using the correct tapered base lug nuts that force the wheel's lug nut openings to center about the lugs?

And please explain why the majority of us who are running aftermarket wheels, the vast majority of which are lug centric, are not having problems with DW?

View attachment 141168
Click to expand...
Dude you two are turning this into jeepforum. Just help the guy and check your egos.
 
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mrblaine said:
Let me help with a couple of things, do the dry steering test hard and fast bumping each limit of the steering wheel against the resistance to turn the tires so the looseness of any component is more pronounced. After the dry test, start it up and do the same test with the engine running to get more force into the system.

If at the end of it and you have found no loose or obviously worn parts, then it is time to do the test for deficient upper control arms. Toe it out to 1/2"+ and go for a drive where a known DW inducement exists. If you can repeatedly hit the same places that used to bring about DW and can no longer recreate the issue, then take a very hard look at the uppers and don't overlook the bushings in the axle mounts.

In case it has been mentioned and I missed it, I don't care how well and perfect your tires are. If they are not round and can run at speed without tread squirm or hop, you will never stop DW. Watch them on the balancer or get them on the rig and run them at speed to check.
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Awesome, I appreciate your help. I’ll do the dry test once I have someone available to come over and help me out. Then go from there. I really hope nothing is loose considering I literally replaced everything but the control arms. I guess we shall see tho. On a further note, what would be a good track bar for stock height? I replaced mine with a duralast one but DO NOT trust it at all. I just got it cus I needed something to help me make it to the shop.
 
mrblaine said:
The biggest issue is two-fold. If your only tool is a hammer, every solution is a nail. If we start making folks get the hub centric issue at the top of the list, there will be far too many folks who buy new rims or spend an inordinate amount of time chasing down hub centric spacers for their rims and guess what? They will still have DW.

Let us try and keep it in perspective, recognize that non hub centric rims being the cause of DW is very low and caution folks to the same.
Click to expand...
As I say every time the hub-centric rims come up- it is the last thing. The very last thing to do when dealing with death wobble. I make this very clear. It is a very low percentage cure and only when every other possibility has been check to be good.
But I have had several vibration and dw problems fixed by either getting hub-centric rims, or a hub ring for lug-centric rims. This is never a 'most likely ' cure. And i have never suggested that this is the right 'hammer' for the vibration 'nail'.
 
Well, I went to the storage garage today to get the date codes from the tires. 5212, which is the last week of 2012, which means they are over 7 years old. Now I have to decide if I should stick with 265s or step back a bit to 245s. Having stock gearing, the 245s may work better, power wise. According to tiresize.com, there is about a 1" height difference. For what I use it for, re-gearing is not going to happen. They probably won't look quite as good, but function wise, all I really do with it, is drive down logging roads, and run errands around town with the top down. Any thoughts?
 
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