Right, and I figure even if they did make any difference - it was very unnoticeable and hard to feel.
What is the best riding and performing lift kit for my 2001 TJ?
- Thread starter 01saharatj
- Start date
If I ever did find something perceivable, it was so subtle that in hindsight compared to the later shock work, all my arguments at the time (all very familiar to what we see here) seem silly.
Precisely. And why go through “spring tuning” when shock tuning can be changed on good shocks easily.
I worked very hard to maintain a ride height with different spring rates. All I got in the end were a bunch of springs to resell on Craigslist. The fact that I only found differences so slight that I don't know if they were real tells me that springs only do one thing. That one thing is to support the Jeep at a desired ride height.
The cars are bout 160# give or take and each class has a minimum weight from 250-350# total minimum racing weight.
That is the equivalent of putting roughly 2-4000 lb. per inch springs on each corner of a TJ if your 150 and 160 numbers were accurate.
Put another way, there is very little that I can do to convince you that the earth is in fact not flat.
At every turn, the tiniest bit of info that supports your position no matter how flawed is gathered up with enthusiasm and hoarded. Then it is used later to try and prove that springs do something they don't and that is shown in the various constructs you derive.
This recent spate of info on the quarter midgets is as relevant as sticking cut-outs of the continents from some magazine on a large pancake to prove that the earth isn't round.
No, I don't think you're dumb. I've been in enough conversations with smart folks trying to teach them how bolts work to no avail that I know how it goes and will continue to go so I'm going back into my hole now.
Wow, only 160 lbs? That is crazy light. When I was a kid I had a go-kart with a 5hp Briggs and Stratton motor that weighed almost that much. But that didn't have any suspension or roll cage. That just blows my mind they are that light. Maybe my go-kart was lighter than I realized too. It felt like hundreds of pounds to a teenage kid. But we never had to weigh in.
How much suspension travel does something like that have? Looks like a fun sport.
Thank you for taking the time to try and help me understand. I do appreciate it, even if it sounds like I am only here to argue. I also keep your evidence and points of illustraion in my mind as well as i move forward with my understanding of suspension systems. I fully acknowledge that I don't have the practical experience that you do. I can only look at the textbook data (so to speak). There are so many sources that indicate spring rate is important to how a vehicle behaves, that I just can't grasp how its not playing a role.
I do understand that the range of rates we are working with in our TJ/LJ are somewhat limited. And I agree that tuning shocks or swapping shocks will make a much bigger difference than changing springs will make. But I just can't wrap my head around the idea that spring rates do not make a difference. Thanks for trying.
PS - I have friend who is a flat earther. Those are indeed interesting conversations.
Sorry for the delay, I only get to the forum once a day, and only one response per day.
So to go back a few pages...
When Blaine is setting up a new vehicle he is building he said he weighs the corners, then orders the lightest spring rate and to achieve his desired ride height (or something close to that).
Why? If spring rate makes no difference why do this? And to claim a lower rate spring will effect ride height is pure nonsense. Ride height on ANY rate spring can be changed (WHEN THEY ARE BEING MADE) as Blaine alluded to.
And to repeat what I have been saying even before this post started, the suspension is a set of different parts WORKING TOGETHER. And once again for the folks in the balcony, shocks do 1 thing. They control the movement of the spring. They can make a softer spring 'act' firmer, but can NOT make a spring 'act' softer. No shock will make (or 'let's if you prefer) a spring move more than the spring, effected by the combination of road surface and vehicle weight, is designed to. A shock CAN make (and does, after all that is what it is designed to do) a spring act or feel firmer by restricting the movement of the spring.
Using the illustration of Blaine's pickup, which was irrelevant when I used it, no shock will make the truck ride smoother when empty. Sure, a different shock to the one currently being used could improve the ride, but it can't make the spring MORE compliant or move more than the spring would move with NO shock. Yes, that will let the spring bounce uncontrolled (because the job of the shock is to control the spring).
The only way to make a harder spring more responsive to road surface is to increase vehicle weight, so the spring is now working with its correct load.
After the correct spring is selected, that is to say the correct (lowest) rate for the vehicle's weight, and made to provide the chosen ride height, which is done by adding or subtracting coils WHEN THE SPRING IS MADE, now the shock is chosen to provide correct spring control and be the proper length, AGAIN WHEN THE SHOCK IS MADE. Now fine tuning of the shock valving can be done to produce the best travel and spring control possible. This can not be don on a cheap shock produced in bulk. Just as the ideal spring for a specific vehicle needs to be made, not just a spring made in bulk. But to claim changing spring rate changes ride height is to claim that a 4" lift spring can not be cut to produce a lower ride height. It is a matter of how the spring was designed when made. Changing vehicle weight changes ride height, yet spring rate remains unchanged.
This is why I constantly state 'all other things being unchanged. Every company that sells a lift 'kit in a box' has to make assumptions as to the typical weight and use of the vehicle their kit is designed for. FINAL tuning of a suspension is done by changing or adjusting the shock's movement range and valving. It is the easiest and cheapest way to tune each individual vehicle after proper choices are made in tires, tire pressure, spring rate, spring static height, axle location, arm design, etc. It is a complex interaction between multiple components that affect each other in different ways to produce a vehicle that rides and handles the way that person desires.
So to go back a few pages...
When Blaine is setting up a new vehicle he is building he said he weighs the corners, then orders the lightest spring rate and to achieve his desired ride height (or something close to that).
Why? If spring rate makes no difference why do this? And to claim a lower rate spring will effect ride height is pure nonsense. Ride height on ANY rate spring can be changed (WHEN THEY ARE BEING MADE) as Blaine alluded to.
And to repeat what I have been saying even before this post started, the suspension is a set of different parts WORKING TOGETHER. And once again for the folks in the balcony, shocks do 1 thing. They control the movement of the spring. They can make a softer spring 'act' firmer, but can NOT make a spring 'act' softer. No shock will make (or 'let's if you prefer) a spring move more than the spring, effected by the combination of road surface and vehicle weight, is designed to. A shock CAN make (and does, after all that is what it is designed to do) a spring act or feel firmer by restricting the movement of the spring.
Using the illustration of Blaine's pickup, which was irrelevant when I used it, no shock will make the truck ride smoother when empty. Sure, a different shock to the one currently being used could improve the ride, but it can't make the spring MORE compliant or move more than the spring would move with NO shock. Yes, that will let the spring bounce uncontrolled (because the job of the shock is to control the spring).
The only way to make a harder spring more responsive to road surface is to increase vehicle weight, so the spring is now working with its correct load.
After the correct spring is selected, that is to say the correct (lowest) rate for the vehicle's weight, and made to provide the chosen ride height, which is done by adding or subtracting coils WHEN THE SPRING IS MADE, now the shock is chosen to provide correct spring control and be the proper length, AGAIN WHEN THE SHOCK IS MADE. Now fine tuning of the shock valving can be done to produce the best travel and spring control possible. This can not be don on a cheap shock produced in bulk. Just as the ideal spring for a specific vehicle needs to be made, not just a spring made in bulk. But to claim changing spring rate changes ride height is to claim that a 4" lift spring can not be cut to produce a lower ride height. It is a matter of how the spring was designed when made. Changing vehicle weight changes ride height, yet spring rate remains unchanged.
This is why I constantly state 'all other things being unchanged. Every company that sells a lift 'kit in a box' has to make assumptions as to the typical weight and use of the vehicle their kit is designed for. FINAL tuning of a suspension is done by changing or adjusting the shock's movement range and valving. It is the easiest and cheapest way to tune each individual vehicle after proper choices are made in tires, tire pressure, spring rate, spring static height, axle location, arm design, etc. It is a complex interaction between multiple components that affect each other in different ways to produce a vehicle that rides and handles the way that person desires.
I'm guessing probably not.
There is a reason the OME springs are a top choice. And a reason OME springs are made with different rates and heights.
If any of that shit mattered, then how am I able to take any rig and make it ride like total dogshit and never change the ride height, spring, tire, road surface, steering, control arms, control arm length, or any aspect of the suspension except the shock?
holy s#!+, I had no idea quarter midget was a thing. It makes this guy look like big head mode on GoldenEye from the Nintendo64. Unless he's actually a "little person", in which case I pre-emptively retract my insensitive big head comment.
Those springs sure don't look like 160# to me, but I can see how a stiff spring would work since there's nearly no ground clearance (and therefore very little travel desired).
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I think a lot of the issue here is that you want to address this within the context of a TJ, which is appropriate to the original posts intent, but we have people here that are legitimately trying to understand a greater concept that can be applied outside that limited context. You can be (and are) correct that within the springs available for a TJ that ride comfort is not going to be affected with spring rate as the single variable, but in the greater world of all motor vehicles including road cars, race cars, dirt bikes, dressers, rock bouncers and street rods, there are things that go into a spring rate selection beyond just the ride height, and I think that's what people are trying to understand.
When we get into those contexts, we can have very different conversations, until then, we have to stay in context and that context is very simple.
I can make your rig ride like shit and never touch anything but the shocks. You will not be able to fix one iota of that or affect the ride quality to any humanly discernible degree with anything else you care to change and I don't care what you want to try, it can't be done. That is why once you have them doing their job correctly of holding the rig at design height, springs cease to matter.
Hi @01saharatj .....
I love the OME and Rancho setup ss suggested to you.
Here are the part numbers:
OME springs 933/942 front and rear
Rancho shocks RS55241/55239 front and rear
You may need wheel spacers for backspacing.
You will need an adjustable front trackbar (jks or rough country)
You will need an adjustable rear trackbar OR a relocation bracket (cheaper)
You can spend close to 1k on all parts.
I love the OME and Rancho setup ss suggested to you.
Here are the part numbers:
OME springs 933/942 front and rear
Rancho shocks RS55241/55239 front and rear
You may need wheel spacers for backspacing.
You will need an adjustable front trackbar (jks or rough country)
You will need an adjustable rear trackbar OR a relocation bracket (cheaper)
You can spend close to 1k on all parts.
I've been told sane thing.. that spring rates can affect body roll...
OME could coils generally tend to be long and light compared to others in the ~2" lift range. It's similar to how Currie became the 4" spring of choice for those maximizing the shock travels.
Your preferred standard coil is Currie 4". Didn't you recently in the last year build around a Rubicon Express 4.5" due to the owner wanting a massive tire carrier and cargo rack?