Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ radiator

Harmonic vibrations in Jeeps: A new theory (please read!)

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I have the exact harmonic vibration that has been discussed at length early in this thread. 42RLE on a Rubi. New Adams F&R... Good pinion. Comes in right at about 65 goes almost completely away if OD is turned off. Gone completely if rear shaft is removed. Running the common 4.25 with 3/4 spacers... MML and tummy tuck with UCF "extra" skid, Core TB's and RK short arms, all new.

It has a slightly wobbly TC damper. Could the damper be actually inducing the harmonic? It seems that the best result was finding the "spinning item" that was not "perfect" was the best solution.
 
Bringing this one back to the top...

I have the exact harmonic vibration that has been discussed at length early in this thread. 42RLE on a Rubi. New Adams F&R... Good pinion. Comes in right at about 65 goes almost completely away if OD is turned off. Gone completely if rear shaft is removed. Running the common 4.25 with 3/4 spacers... MML (Motor Mount Lift) and tummy tuck with UCF "extra" skid, Core TB's and RK short arms, all new.

It has a slightly wobbly TC damper. Could the damper be actually inducing the harmonic? It seems that the best result was finding the "spinning item" that was not "perfect" was the best solution.
After a re-gear?
 
Bringing this one back to the top...

I have the exact harmonic vibration that has been discussed at length early in this thread. 42RLE on a Rubi. New Adams F&R... Good pinion. Comes in right at about 65 goes almost completely away if OD is turned off. Gone completely if rear shaft is removed. Running the common 4.25 with 3/4 spacers... MML (Motor Mount Lift) and tummy tuck with UCF "extra" skid, Core TB's and RK short arms, all new.

It has a slightly wobbly TC damper. Could the damper be actually inducing the harmonic? It seems that the best result was finding the "spinning item" that was not "perfect" was the best solution.
Have you tried without the TC dampener?
 
After a re-gear?
Sorry, yes... should have been in the first post. 35's and 5.13 gears.

Rear shaft has been speed balanced locally.

TC damper has not been removed... That is one of the next steps being considered.

Seems like the free spin hubs has been the one specific "fix". But want to make sure I have explored the rest before that expense...
 
I'll add, it is the higher pitch pulsating vibration that comes in and out about every 2 seconds... It is not a steady state vibration like tires, etc.
 
I'll add, it is the higher pitch pulsating vibration that comes in and out about every 2 seconds... It is not a steady state vibration like tires, etc.
that is normal harmonic vibration...the pulsing is where you are not quite at resonance...that is why it pulses
 
No luck... We've run through all of the tests and it only vibrates when fully assembled. Pull either driveshaft, or drop it out of OD and the vibration doesn't happen. No way I'm spending $3k to do the free spin hubs... I wouldn't mind tinkering with the weight on the TC harmonic damper, just wish we had an idea if I should be going heavier or lighter.
 
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Personally I would start by removing it altogether and seeing if that makes a difference. Maybe find a junkyard one and strip the ring and the rubber off and see what changes.

It’s likely more than just a simple damper. I’m guessing it is more like a tuned mass damper, where it is designed to vibrate at certain frequencies to introduce destructive interference to quiet certain known vibrations on a stock Jeep. If the known vibrations change frequency, the tuned mass damper may be introducing its own torsional vibrations at inappropriate frequencies since there are no longer any vibrations at those speeds to cancel out the ones created by the damper.

In a design/production environment, the proper fix would involve a significant amount of work. First, an engineer would probably start without it and mount transducers at various points to see if they can determine the problem areas and problem frequencies. Using some fancy math (likely involving differential equations and other calculus), they could determine what masses are vibrating and what their natural frequencies are. From there they could design a tuned mass damper that could absorb the worst of the problem frequencies while introducing no significant new torsional vibrations.

The above is probably what the factory did to create the tuned mass damper in the first place. When we go in and start changing masses, driveline geometry, and driveline speed, we may inadvertently invalidate that research and design, and potentially even cause it to become counterproductive.
 
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Like many others on this thread, my vibrations pulse. In fact, I’ve noted that if I go into 4WD at freeway speeds, I can pause the vibrations at any point in their cycle. I can pause them at the loudest and at the quietest by simply timing my 4WD shift.

This gives me the impression that the vibrations are an interaction between the front and rear driveshafts. As we drive in 2WD, the rear tires actually rotate slightly faster than the front tires due to slip. All tires slip to some degree when a force is applied. Since there is significantly more torque (and thus thrust force) on the rear tires, they slip faster than the front. And since the front tires are merely coasting, they slip in the opposite direction. The result is that the two driveshafts are not spinning at the same speed.

My thought behind the pulsing effect is that we are hearing the effects of the vibrations of each shaft going in phase versus out of phase with each other. In music, this is called a “beat” when two instruments are played simultaneously with one instrument slightly out of tune. You are hearing alternating constructive and destructive interference. The more out of tune one instrument is with the other, the faster the beats are.

There is also the question of what is actually vibrating in each driveline. This is probably the hardest question to answer. Pretty much all things vibrate. The questions we actually have to ask, are does it matter? Will anything excite a vibration by approaching a natural frequency or harmonic? Can we change the frequency or harmonic? It’s less of a matter in preventing every vibration, but more isolating problem vibrations and figuring out ways to make them non-problem vibrations or reduce/eliminate those specific ones.

I have recently suspected the source of many TJ vibrations to be the Double Cardan joint. The Double Cardan joint is not a true CV joint. While the in and out speeds are always the same, the intermediate carrier speed fluctuates with each rotation. As the driveshaft spins with a DC joint at an angle, the DC intermediate carrier must accelerate and decelerate slightly twice with every rotation. With Newton’s laws in effect, that torsional acceleration has to come from an applied moment. That applied moment can only come from one or both ends of the DC joint. Thus, the DC intermediate carrier introduces a fully reversed moment twice per each rotation of the driveshaft against either end of the driveshaft.

As to why we generally only feel it with one driveshaft installed, I suspect it’s because the vibrations induced by one shaft alone are below the threshold of being noticeable. Perhaps there is enough damping or compliance in the system to accommodate one shaft worth of vibrations. But when we add in a second shaft, we get the effects of constructive and destructive interference. And at least the constructive peaks of the combined vibrations are of a high enough amplitude to be significantly noticeable.

As to how these torsional vibrations become vibrations in the linear sense, I am less able to guess. I think that the point of transmission of the torsional vibrations to linear is likely in the transfer case. The two vibrating shafts are not collinear - they are offset from one another. In particular, the front shaft is offset from the rest of the engine/transmission/transfer case. So in order for that moment to be transferred through the transfer case, there must be a moment or force applied to the case itself, transmitting vibrations to the mounts and thus to the body. How this would work I am really not quite sure. A possibility I suspect is that the shaft is applying an oscillating force on the output bearings as the moment in the shaft oscillates, because since the shaft operates at an angle, the reaction moments on the axle pinion and the transfer case output pinion are not in the same plane, and thus require one or more out of plane reaction moments to balance it. These moments would have to be provided by the output bearing, the pinion bearing, or both. And at that point, the vibrations have become linear, and can be felt in the skid, the frame, and the body.

As to why the vibrations might be worse in a gear other than the 1:1 drive gear for some people, I suspect that the gear reduction in the transmission provides an extra means for torsional vibrations to become linear, as the difference in torque between the transmission input shaft and output shaft must be made up by torque on the case itself. Thus if the moment on the output shaft at any instant changes, so does the moment on the transmission case. If the transmission is in the 1:1 gear, there is no effective torque applied to the transmission case.

(This is all speculation and should not be taken as fact.)
 
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Does anyone make driveshafts for TJs with true constant speed joints rather than double Cardans? That would eliminate two potential sources of vibration.
 
One of the challenges is that it's not exactly the same for everyone... But in my opinion, that's because no 2 Jeeps are ever built alike. There are a few things that seem reasonably constant though. And I've found in talking to more people, it's more common than we probably realize. Extraordinary Jeep builders know it's there and have few solutions...

1. The 4.0 - 42RLE - NV241 combo is very likely to be involved.
2. Lifted and re-geared Jeeps are affected.
3. Pull either driveshaft and it goes away.
4. Drop out of OD and it goes away.
5. Free spin hub conversion fixes it (stops the front shaft from spinning).

Discussion includes changing the harmonic damper on the TC which is likely installed to counter the harmonic that is there in factory trim. Possibly created by the double cardan design that virtually all of us are running in a lifted and re-geared rig. Possibly created by any not fully balanced spinning object in the drivetrain.

Possible solutions...

Tuning the TC harmonic damper... (a guessing game)
Change out the double cardans for double rzeppa joints in custom driveshafts F&R? Cost? Any reason it can't be done?
Find the object that is out of balance and initiating the harmonic... Needle in a haystack, could even be the 4.0 crankshaft...
 
Does anyone make driveshafts for TJs with true constant speed joints rather than double Cardans? That would eliminate two potential sources of vibration.
That's one of the comments in my post above... I haven't found any, but can it be built? A few high angle Rzeppa's would cost a bit, but if it was a fix and they would survive, I would do it. Still WAY LESS $$$ than the free spin kit plus new rear axle shafts and a new set of wheels to match the bolt pattern change.
 
Like mentioned above, I'd bet money that the harmonic happens more that most will comment. It was hard for me to hear mine this past summer while topless. Put the hard top on, and BAM! there it is. I even bought another rear drive shaft from TW in hopes that my Adams shaft just wasn't balanced good enough. Nope, didn't help.
 
Does anyone make driveshafts for TJs with true constant speed joints rather than double Cardans? That would eliminate two potential sources of vibration.

That's one of the comments in my post above... I haven't found any, but can it be built? A few high angle Rzeppa's would cost a bit, but if it was a fix and they would survive, I would do it. Still WAY LESS $$$ than the free spin kit plus new rear axle shafts and a new set of wheels to match the bolt pattern change.

No one makes a shaft that you can buy readily. I called both Tom Wood and Adams driveshaft and they actually recommended against them for use in a TJ. Their reasons were fast wear and tear and strength. Also .. if you do want to get one made, it will be pretty expensive. I also asked about a double double cardan shaft (ie DC at both ends of the shaft) and they said it will most certainly have balance issues at hwy speeds.

Yukon does make a 5x4.5 hub kit that does not require a bolt pattern change.~ $1k + labor.
 
The problem with Rzeppa joints is that they generally don’t tolerate high RPMs, especially at large angles. So they may make sense at the steering knuckle, they may quickly fail at 5x the RPM on the driveshaft. I believe some factory JKs had Rzeppa joints in the driveshaft, but people generally try to eliminate them. Could be worth a try though.

There are other types of CV joints out there, though I really don’t know much about them.

One thought I had is you could use a double double cardan shaft, or a shaft with a DC at both ends. If you run the axle and transfer case pinions with their axes parallel, and clock the DC joints 90 degrees from each other with a sufficiently stiff shaft in the middle, they could cancel each other out at any RPM. Though you would have to have very well made DC joints to ensure that the center tube stays exactly where it needs to be.

However, you would have to run pretty high caster in the front and/or very high driveshaft angles in the rear to make it work.
 
Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ radiator