Crossover Steering - Keep or remove steering stabilizer? (98 TJ)

[Rogue Traveler]

I have read enough to know that including the steering stabilizer with a C/O is generally not done.

I use my TJ for off-roading, daily, and towing (yes towing).

Loads of upgrades already to further help with towing ability with things like: new rear axel (Dana 489 from ECGS) with rear disc break and trutrac lockers, new and reinforced galvanized frame, Metal Cloak long control arms, and the list goes on...

My main question...
Should I even do the C/O change or stick with a V drag and link and tie rod system?


Second question....
Are there any bump steer mitigation advantages of including the stabilizer with the C/O steering?

 

[rasband]

Should I even do the C/O change or stick with a V drag and link and tie rod system?

Keep the Y link and stabilizer and don't do the cross over steering. I'm sure there's cases it's worth it, but from everything I have read and know, it's not an improvement over what we already have (which you could beef up if you want and haven't already).

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Absolutely avoid a crossover steering change unless you like terrible steering, a dead spot in the center, and bump steer. Stay with the factory inverted-Y design which has superb problem-free geometry.

 

[Rogue Traveler]

Thank you! I was just reading some deeper threads and saw some comments from Jerry and others.

Going to stick with the "Y" and go with CurrectLync.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Going to stick with the "Y" and go with CurrectLync.

Good decisions on both of those.

 

[Deputy Dodge]

Why the hate for the crossover? My first truck was a 76 F100 with the inverted y steering, The upgrade has always been to switch to a T style steering that the factory started using in 78. Especially in lifted applications. Coming from the Samurai world, cross over is also the way to go, BUT only if using the factory knuckles to maintain the ackerman angle. i'm not seeing why there's a difference on a Jeep Dana solid axle compared to a Ford Dana solid axle.

 

[Blackjack]

Why the hate for the crossover? My first truck was a 76 F100 with the inverted y steering, The upgrade has always been to switch to a T style steering that the factory started using in 78. Especially in lifted applications. Coming from the Samurai world, cross over is also the way to go, BUT only if using the factory knuckles to maintain the ackerman angle. i'm not seeing why there's a difference on a Jeep Dana solid axle compared to a Ford Dana solid axle.

There are lots of threads on here explaining why the Haltenberger linkage is better especially on TJs. As for the F150 as a previous 76 owner myself the issue arose from a lack of understanding at the time of the relationship bewteen the track bar and drag link especially if you lifted it. Haltenberger linkage needs to be relatively flat to be effective and Ford already had the angles high in factory form. Also ask yourself why so many JK, Ram and Superduty forums all have thread after thread talking about death wobble and guess what do all those vehicles have in common, crossover steering.

 

[JEEPCJTJ]

Also ask yourself why so many JK, Ram and Superduty forums all have thread after thread talking about death wobble and guess what do all those vehicles have in common, crossover steering.

I don't know about the JKs or Superdutys but the 4 wheel drive Dodge Rams, 2500 and up with straight axles and coil springs, had the same, but bigger, suspension and steering set up as the TJs until 2008. Cross over steering? No. Death Wobble? Yes and while still under warranty. Chrysler sent engineers out to every dealer to train their mechanics as to why it happened, what it may have worn or damaged, and how to fix it. The why: negative scrub radius from the goofy wheels that looked like they should be on something FWD. The official Chrysler DW fix: wheel spacers. Maybe that fix ended up just being an accidental temporary band aid because in 2008 Chrysler switched the straight axle Rams to T-link steering without changing the suspension. They even sold that as replacement parts for the trucks back to 2002. T-link is considerably closer to crossover steering than the Y-link is and I don't think they made that switch to increase the chances of DW.

 

[Deputy Dodge]

I'm a much bigger fan of the T link than the Y link. When I bought replacement front end parts for my 2011 Ram (ALL OF THEM, UGH SOOOOO MUCH$$$) I noticed that the 2009+ steering was listed as an upgrade for the 2008- trucks. The only proper steering on the lifted Samurai is a link from the pitman arm to the upper king pin plate, and another link between the factory original steering knuckles. Does DW happen on Samurais? Yep. Steering linkage related? Not unless there are worn parts.

 

[rasband]

I'm a much bigger fan of the T link than the Y link. When I bought replacement front end parts for my 2011 Ram (ALL OF THEM, UGH SOOOOO MUCH$$$) I noticed that the 2009+ steering was listed as an upgrade for the 2008- trucks. The only proper steering on the lifted Samurai is a link from the pitman arm to the upper king pin plate, and another link between the factory original steering knuckles. Does DW happen on Samurais? Yep. Steering linkage related? Not unless there are worn parts.

Are you suggesting that just because the T link is preferable to you on other vehicles it’s a good fit for a TJ?

 

[Deputy Dodge]

Pretty much, yes. The TJ and the Ford are both Dana 30/44 axles with open knuckles and ball joints, coil springs and track bars. The Ram is a bigger version with the same components. And as stated above, Ford and Ram both went to the T link style for a reason, 30 years apart. While the Samurai is a closed knuckle, king pin/trunnion bearing, leaf sprung and may or may not have a track bar, it is still a solid axle with the same orientation of a steering box. If we were talking IFS vs solid axle I could see some benefits of one over the other. But apples to apples (axles to axles?) i can't see a good argument for the y link style. There may be an argument for the t style over the full-crossover due the linkages being attached to each other instead of separately to one knuckle. On the Samurai crossover works better than other methods because it works around the leafs when they are switched to spring over axle instead of spring under and it retains the Ackerman angle. It may not work on other axles, but again, apples to apples.

 

[rasband]

Pretty much, yes. The TJ and the Ford are both Dana 30/44 axles with open knuckles and ball joints, coil springs and track bars. The Ram is a bigger version with the same components. And as stated above, Ford and Ram both went to the T link style for a reason, 30 years apart. While the Samurai is a closed knuckle, king pin/trunnion bearing, leaf sprung and may or may not have a track bar, it is still a solid axle with the same orientation of a steering box. If we were talking IFS vs solid axle I could see some benefits of one over the other. But apples to apples (axles to axles?) i can't see a good argument for the y link style. There may be an argument for the t style over the full-crossover due the linkages being attached to each other instead of separately to one knuckle. On the Samurai crossover works better than other methods because it works around the leafs when they are switched to spring over axle instead of spring under and it retains the Ackerman angle. It may not work on other axles, but again, apples to apples.

There’s lots of apples and oranges comparisons here! As far as I know this is simple geometry consideration with the track bar and drag link angles. If they’re parallel and travel on the same arch you won’t see a lot of negatives (bump steer), but most alternative steering designs aren’t parallel.

@mrblaine has designed at least a few steering systems, you’ll find tidbits around if you want:

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/crossover-steering.656/#post-6559

 

[mrblaine]

Why the hate for the crossover? My first truck was a 76 F100 with the inverted y steering, The upgrade has always been to switch to a T style steering that the factory started using in 78. Especially in lifted applications. Coming from the Samurai world, cross over is also the way to go, BUT only if using the factory knuckles to maintain the ackerman angle. i'm not seeing why there's a difference on a Jeep Dana solid axle compared to a Ford Dana solid axle.

I'm sure that's all wonderful in some places but not on the TJ. The issue is the trackbar, lift height, and clearance over the axle along with the fact that all of those contribute to tie rod roll due to the draglink attaching to the tie rod instead of to the knuckle. Inverted T doesn't even work well when you can get the draglink nearly parallel to the tie rod not to mention that you really should move the trackbar to bring the draglink/trackbar relationship back into something civilized.

If you insist on bringing OEM into this, how about the 05 Dodge 3500 like the one I own. It came from the factory with inverted Y. The steering was clean, precise, comfortable to drive for many hours on end as solidly befits a tow rig.

Dodge did a steering recall that had the particulars been familiar to me, I would have avoided like the plague. They moved from the inverted Y to inverted T. Test driving it home was bad. I tried to get my old parts back, gone. I tried to find new old stock, none to be found. My nice steering now requires your full attention and lots of little tiring corrections to stay in the lane. It wears on you when you have a trailer with a Jeep on it, supplies for a multi-day stay in the desert, and 4000 lbs of camper in the bed. It is no less fun empty, just less stressful.

And finally, do I really need to point out the differences in suspension amongst all your examples?

 

[mrblaine]

There’s lots of apples and oranges comparisons here! As far as I know this is simple geometry consideration with the track bar and drag link angles. If they’re parallel and travel on the same arch you won’t see a lot of negatives (bump steer), but most alternative steering designs aren’t parallel.

@mrblaine has designed at least a few steering systems, you’ll find tidbits around if you want:

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/crossover-steering.656/#post-6559

More like apples and horse apples.