Cooling system cleanliness

I've seen some comments from you (in the cooling system faq thread) that seemed to indicate that there was a point in history that you didn't have to drill the bleed hole. Did earlier thermostats have an open bleed hole, or a bigger jiggle pin hole?
The earlier Mopar thermostats had a small tube with a slightly crimped end that captured a small stainless steel ball. It worked sorta like a check valve. We never had to drill the flange on those. It wasn't until they moved to the jiggler that we do.
Were they also from motorad?
You should know better than to ask me that. I don't know, I never cared to look, that stuff is of zero interest to me 99% of the time.
I'm not really going anywhere with that, just curious. The Robert shaw stat looks way different than any Stant or Motorad I've ever seen and I don't know if there's a bleed hole somewhere in it that I can't see.

If you opened up a rig with a failed Mopar thermostat tomorrow, what would be your next candidate?
No idea. I don't go looking for trouble, I get enough for free.
I'm batting 0% on motorad ultrastat rebranded as Stant Superstat so I'm done with Stant and any motorad that isn't from a Mopar dealer.
Good luck.
 
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UGH!!!

The last day I worked on this was Sunday, and I strained my right trapezius which was spasming and compressing the ulnar/median/radian nerves on that side putting me in a steady state of mind numbing pain and unable to really use my arm. So rather than getting the water pump replaced and filling the system with coolant, I went to bed with it filled with distilled water and now it's got rust again, despite looking really clean when I previously removed the thermostat to flush out the thermocure.

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So I've got another bottle of thermocure and I guess I'm starting again from scratch tomorrow, other than having the new water pump on it.
 
So I've got another bottle of thermocure and I guess I'm starting again from scratch tomorrow, other than having the new water pump on it.

Nope, spoke too soon, gonna have to take that back off. I took the inlet tube a little too far and it was making contact with the valve cover so I tried to bend it a little bit and creased the damned thing.

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This is just not my week, apparently.

We're taking the kids down to Texas for a couple nights starting sunday to close out the summer at a water park, so I guess the thermocure will sit in it from tomorrow until I get back Tuesday and I'll have to reinstall the fan and shroud only to remove it again with the water pump to replace the inlet tube.

My brain must just be sensitive to heat because I feel like i only make these bonehead moves in the summer when doubling my work also means double the sweat.
 
Nope, spoke too soon, gonna have to take that back off. I took the inlet tube a little too far and it was making contact with the valve cover so I tried to bend it a little bit and creased the damned thing.

View attachment 445170

This is just not my week, apparently.

We're taking the kids down to Texas for a couple nights starting sunday to close out the summer at a water park, so I guess the thermocure will sit in it from tomorrow until I get back Tuesday and I'll have to reinstall the fan and shroud only to remove it again with the water pump to replace the inlet tube.

My brain must just be sensitive to heat because I feel like i only make these bonehead moves in the summer when doubling my work also means double the sweat.

Feel your pain, PS how clean is clean? this is 2 weeks after Thermocure, Radiator cracked, so taking the opportunity to also do my water pump. (Still cleaning the old gasket)

IMG_2668.jpeg
 
UGH!!!

The last day I worked on this was Sunday, and I strained my right trapezius which was spasming and compressing the ulnar/median/radian nerves on that side putting me in a steady state of mind numbing pain and unable to really use my arm. So rather than getting the water pump replaced and filling the system with coolant, I went to bed with it filled with distilled water and now it's got rust again, despite looking really clean when I previously removed the thermostat to flush out the thermocure.

View attachment 445154

So I've got another bottle of thermocure and I guess I'm starting again from scratch tomorrow, other than having the new water pump on it.

If it is still rusty, there was probably some old tap water in there that allowed more rust to form.

I'm going through a similar situation as you with a comedy of errors.

1. Replace the water pump, t-stat, and t-stat housing
2. Filled with Thermocure and distilled water
3. T-stat housing leaked because it was warped
4. Replace t-stat housing and it didn't leak
5. Took it for a test drive, I forgot to tighten the top radiator hose to the t-stat housing, it popped off and sprayed Thermocure+distilled mixture all over the engine bay

Thermocure+water when dried is very sticky. And smelly. And it smokes badly when heated such as on top of the engine. And the smoke smells horrible.

I hope that I can take the Jeep to the car wash and spray out the engine bay pretty well on Saturday and try to do a proper Thermocure flush.
 
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Feel your pain, PS how clean is clean? this is 2 weeks after Thermocure, Radiator cracked, so taking the opportunity to also do my water pump. (Still cleaning the old gasket)

View attachment 445173

I'd like to see it as clean as what @mrblaine posted here.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/cooling-system-cleanliness.72024/post-1366677

I'm not sure how to get it that way though because I'm pretty sure even if it got that clean it would have powdery rust again by the time it was dry.

just a few posts above his is a photo from mine after the 2021 thermocure flush. It's worse than that now.
 
If it is still rusty, there was probably some old tap water in there that allowed more rust to form.

No, it rusted because he didn’t add anti-freeze to the water.

You’re confusing two different chemical processes. The first one is the rusting process. Iron in the steel, water (distilled or tap - it does not matter), and air combine to form rust. The hydrogen in the water, the oxygen in the air, and the iron in steel go through a multi-step process to form rust (iron oxide). First iron oxide hydrate is formed, and then it dehydrates, leaving rust behind. Using distilled water doesn’t prevent rust. That is why anti-freeze has rust inhibitors in it. Without those inhibitors, the steel will rust. It doesn’t matter if there are dissolved minerals in the water (“tap water”) or not. Any water without rust inhibitors will form rust in a steel engine block.

The second chemical process is the precipitation of dissolved minerals in the water. The precipitates are carbonates, which won’t re-dissolve in the water. They are that white powder that builds up. This is why tap water shouldn’t be used in a cooling system. Most tap water has dissolved minerals in it (usually calcium and/or magnesium). When the cooling water is heated by the combustion energy, the minerals precipitate out of the water and leave the scale behind. Once it precipitates out, it continues to build up, clogging up the water passages in the engine.

This is why Mr. Blaine recommends a two-step process. First, a de-scaler (I think Prestone is what he uses) is used to remove the mineral scale. Then, Thermocure is used to remove the rust. After the final Thermocure flush, you add coolant, which has rust inhibitors in it, to slow down the rust buildup.

So, use distilled water to prevent mineral scale buildup and use anti-freeze to prevent rusting. Both components in your cooling system are important.
 
No, it rusted because he didn’t add anti-freeze to the water.

You’re confusing two different chemical processes. The first one is the rusting process. Iron in the steel, water (distilled or tap - it does not matter), and air combine to form rust. The hydrogen in the water, the oxygen in the air, and the iron in steel go through a multi-step process to form rust (iron oxide). First iron oxide hydrate is formed, and then it dehydrates, leaving rust behind. Using distilled water doesn’t prevent rust. That is why anti-freeze has rust inhibitors in it. Without those inhibitors, the steel will rust. It doesn’t matter if there are dissolved minerals in the water (“tap water”) or not. Any water without rust inhibitors will form rust in a steel engine block.

The second chemical process is the precipitation of dissolved minerals in the water. The precipitates are carbonates, which won’t re-dissolve in the water. They are that white powder that builds up. This is why tap water shouldn’t be used in a cooling system. Most tap water has dissolved minerals in it (usually calcium and/or magnesium). When the cooling water is heated by the combustion energy, the minerals precipitate out of the water and leave the scale behind. Once it precipitates out, it continues to build up, clogging up the water passages in the engine.

This is why Mr. Blaine recommends a two-step process. First, a de-scaler (I think Prestone is what he uses) is used to remove the mineral scale. Then, Thermocure is used to remove the rust. After the final Thermocure flush, you add coolant, which has rust inhibitors in it, to slow down the rust buildup.

So, use distilled water to prevent mineral scale buildup and use anti-freeze to prevent rusting. Both components in your cooling system are important.

ok, I was just going to do the Thermocure. Now, I'll do the Prestone and then the Thermocure.
 
No, it rusted because he didn’t add anti-freeze to the water.

You’re confusing two different chemical processes. The first one is the rusting process. Iron in the steel, water (distilled or tap - it does not matter), and air combine to form rust. The hydrogen in the water, the oxygen in the air, and the iron in steel go through a multi-step process to form rust (iron oxide). First iron oxide hydrate is formed, and then it dehydrates, leaving rust behind. Using distilled water doesn’t prevent rust. That is why anti-freeze has rust inhibitors in it. Without those inhibitors, the steel will rust. It doesn’t matter if there are dissolved minerals in the water (“tap water”) or not. Any water without rust inhibitors will form rust in a steel engine block.

The second chemical process is the precipitation of dissolved minerals in the water. The precipitates are carbonates, which won’t re-dissolve in the water. They are that white powder that builds up. This is why tap water shouldn’t be used in a cooling system. Most tap water has dissolved minerals in it (usually calcium and/or magnesium). When the cooling water is heated by the combustion energy, the minerals precipitate out of the water and leave the scale behind. Once it precipitates out, it continues to build up, clogging up the water passages in the engine.

This is why Mr. Blaine recommends a two-step process. First, a de-scaler (I think Prestone is what he uses) is used to remove the mineral scale. Then, Thermocure is used to remove the rust. After the final Thermocure flush, you add coolant, which has rust inhibitors in it, to slow down the rust buildup.

So, use distilled water to prevent mineral scale buildup and use anti-freeze to prevent rusting. Both components in your cooling system are important.

Hope it takes a bit because I've had tap water in my shit for 2 weeks trying to get all the bullshit out and the water to run clear. That's what I get for avoiding pulling the thermostat...

Pulled it today and ran for 10 and flushed 6 times before switching to distilled. Flushed 3 times with distilled and switched to the mason jar instead of a bucket to get a good clean look. Looked clean in the bucket, in the jar it looks like shit. Now I get to go back to Wally world and buy another 8 gallons of fuckin distilled water and do it all over again tomorrow.

16905974280994337708094159692157.jpg
 
No, it rusted because he didn’t add anti-freeze to the water.

You’re confusing two different chemical processes. The first one is the rusting process. Iron in the steel, water (distilled or tap - it does not matter), and air combine to form rust. The hydrogen in the water, the oxygen in the air, and the iron in steel go through a multi-step process to form rust (iron oxide). First iron oxide hydrate is formed, and then it dehydrates, leaving rust behind. Using distilled water doesn’t prevent rust. That is why anti-freeze has rust inhibitors in it. Without those inhibitors, the steel will rust. It doesn’t matter if there are dissolved minerals in the water (“tap water”) or not. Any water without rust inhibitors will form rust in a steel engine block.

The second chemical process is the precipitation of dissolved minerals in the water. The precipitates are carbonates, which won’t re-dissolve in the water. They are that white powder that builds up. This is why tap water shouldn’t be used in a cooling system. Most tap water has dissolved minerals in it (usually calcium and/or magnesium). When the cooling water is heated by the combustion energy, the minerals precipitate out of the water and leave the scale behind. Once it precipitates out, it continues to build up, clogging up the water passages in the engine.

This is why Mr. Blaine recommends a two-step process. First, a de-scaler (I think Prestone is what he uses) is used to remove the mineral scale. Then, Thermocure is used to remove the rust. After the final Thermocure flush, you add coolant, which has rust inhibitors in it, to slow down the rust buildup.

So, use distilled water to prevent mineral scale buildup and use anti-freeze to prevent rusting. Both components in your cooling system are important.

Yep. I knew I needed antifreeze in the long term. Didn't know it would happen in four days, but didn't plan on it sitting 4 days either. It was only supposed to sit overnight.

You seem to know about this a bit more than myself, but would rust happen faster filled and submerged in distilled water, or drained but wet?
 
Yep. I knew I needed antifreeze in the long term. Didn't know it would happen in four days, but didn't plan on it sitting 4 days either. It was only supposed to sit overnight.

You seem to know about this a bit more than myself, but would rust happen faster filled and submerged in distilled water, or drained but wet?

Pretty sure drained and damp it starts almost instantly.
 
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Pretty sure drained and damp it starts almost instantly.

Pretty sure one of the lower rod bearings is going anyway so I'm not sure why I even bother. By the time I get the coolant clean I'll have to tear the engine apart...
 
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Pretty sure drained and damp it starts almost instantly.

That was my thought process too which is why I left it full. Sounds like maybe for the better, but I probably ought to go put some distilled in it again tonight before I go to bed.
 
You seem to know about this a bit more than myself, but would rust happen faster filled and submerged in distilled water, or drained but wet?

Now you're getting to the limits of my experience. Filled and submerged is likely better because the exposure to oxygen is much less, but I think the dissolved oxygen in water will still react to form the hydrated form of iron oxide, so as soon as the water evaporates, that dehydrates and leaves iron oxide behind. Without knowing more, I'd try to fill it rather than leaving it partially full of water and air. But then again, why not fill it with anti-freeze if you're going to fill it?

Pretty sure drained and damp it starts almost instantly.

Yes, water vapor (humidity) gives enough hydrogen to form the hydrated iron oxide. I've had steel in the white rust pretty badly over night with no liquid water on it - just humidity.
 
No, it rusted because he didn’t add anti-freeze to the water.

You’re confusing two different chemical processes. The first one is the rusting process. Iron in the steel, water (distilled or tap - it does not matter), and air combine to form rust. The hydrogen in the water, the oxygen in the air, and the iron in steel go through a multi-step process to form rust (iron oxide). First iron oxide hydrate is formed, and then it dehydrates, leaving rust behind. Using distilled water doesn’t prevent rust. That is why anti-freeze has rust inhibitors in it. Without those inhibitors, the steel will rust. It doesn’t matter if there are dissolved minerals in the water (“tap water”) or not. Any water without rust inhibitors will form rust in a steel engine block.

The second chemical process is the precipitation of dissolved minerals in the water. The precipitates are carbonates, which won’t re-dissolve in the water. They are that white powder that builds up. This is why tap water shouldn’t be used in a cooling system. Most tap water has dissolved minerals in it (usually calcium and/or magnesium). When the cooling water is heated by the combustion energy, the minerals precipitate out of the water and leave the scale behind. Once it precipitates out, it continues to build up, clogging up the water passages in the engine.

This is why Mr. Blaine recommends a two-step process. First, a de-scaler (I think Prestone is what he uses) is used to remove the mineral scale. Then, Thermocure is used to remove the rust. After the final Thermocure flush, you add coolant, which has rust inhibitors in it, to slow down the rust buildup.

So, use distilled water to prevent mineral scale buildup and use anti-freeze to prevent rusting. Both components in your cooling system are important.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Thermocure removes mineral scale, I just don't believe it does it as well as a drive around flush does. I may be thinking about it incorrectly but given that Thermocure is an Evaporust derivative, I tend to think they focus more on the rust side of things.
 
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I'm pretty sure I've read that Thermocure removes mineral scale, I just don't believe it does it as well as a drive around flush does. I may be thinking about it incorrectly but given that Thermocure is an Evaporust derivative, I tend to think they focus more on the rust side of things.

I agree. I think I read that, too, but my thought was that the scale is usually on top the rust, so it makes sense to remove the scale and then treat the rust.
 
Now you're getting to the limits of my experience. Filled and submerged is likely better because the exposure to oxygen is much less, but I think the dissolved oxygen in water will still react to form the hydrated form of iron oxide, so as soon as the water evaporates, that dehydrates and leaves iron oxide behind. Without knowing more, I'd try to fill it rather than leaving it partially full of water and air. But then again, why not fill it with anti-freeze if you're going to fill it?



Yes, water vapor (humidity) gives enough hydrogen to form the hydrated iron oxide. I've had steel in the white rust pretty badly over night with no liquid water on it - just humidity.

Would rather not waste a $25 gallon of G05 to put antifreeze in it since I'm gonna do another round of thermocure tomorrow anyway. I'll just put distilled back in it, thermocure is supposed to be here by 11am tomorrow and I can start the process again.

I guess I could add a small amount of antifreeze if I know how much I needed to inhibit further rust. A quart would be 10%.
 
Amazon overnight shipping, wow. Thermocure was on my doorstep at 8am, in the Jeep by 9 and has had an hour of drive time. I'll try to accumulate at least 1-2 more and then it'll have to sit until I get back on Tuesday. If I hadn't creased the water pump inlet pipe I probably could have done it all today and had it buttoned up but I don't want to put antifreeze in it before I take off the water pump again.
 
Amazon overnight shipping, wow. Thermocure was on my doorstep at 8am, in the Jeep by 9 and has had an hour of drive time. I'll try to accumulate at least 1-2 more and then it'll have to sit until I get back on Tuesday. If I hadn't creased the water pump inlet pipe I probably could have done it all today and had it buttoned up but I don't want to put antifreeze in it before I take off the water pump again.

You could always cut the pipe off, remove the rest and do this with a longer, or added section of heater hose. I‘m thinking about it next time I have to change a pump.

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